S2, Ep3 | Climate Bois Club, with Kate Aronoff

Amy [00:00:11] Hey, Hotcakes, welcome to the podcast, where we examine the climate crisis and all the ways we're talking and not talking about it. I'm Amy Westervelt.

Mary [00:00:20] And I'm Mary Annaise Heglar. This episode, we're going to dig into the intersections between climate and media and climate and politics. And we have a very special guest along to help us do just that.

[00:00:32] That's right. We have the perfect person to talk about this, Kate Aronoff. She's one of the leading climate and politics journalists. And if you're not reading her work over at The New Republic, you should go and fix that.

[00:00:45] Yeah. She's also a co-host of the Hot and Bothered podcast, which I had the pleasure of being on earlier in quarantine. I guess I don't actually know when that happened because time is not really a tangible reality is nowhere like a concept that exists in poetry books. I understand that some people still have watches and clocks and I don't understand how that works. But anyway, yes, she's got a great other podcast, too.

[00:01:08] Yes. Some of the things that we'll get into with Kate are how defunding the police is good for climate, why media outlets are remiss to talk about race and climate in the same breath and degrowth and eco modernism. What are those? I don't know.

[00:01:26] Let's find out.

[00:01:28] Yeah, and we talk about the potential death of the climate Sadda Boy, which is a term that Kate coined just last year. And we're going to learn all about what that is and why you're not really seeing that much of a mini months. Right. All right. Ready to get into it yet? It's time to talk about climate.

[00:01:55] Welcome to the show, Kate. I'm so excited to be here.

[00:01:58] First question, how did you get into journalism, specifically into climate journalism?

[00:02:05] Yeah, I came to climate stuff before before journalism in college.

[00:02:12] I worked on something called the fossil fuel divestment campaign of trucks might be familiar with to get universities to take their endowments out of fossil fuels. And so I did that for four years and in college started something called the Fossil Fuel Divestment Student Network and have done like a lot of comms work through the surrounding farms, doing kind of media, writing tweets and things like that, organizational counts, and decided after college that I like doing that work and then was better at that.

[00:02:51] And I was organizing, which is really hard. Folks also may also know.

[00:02:57] And so wanted to write about things that I wasn't directly working on. And so started mostly writing about social movements.

[00:03:08] And then slowly through being fortunate enough to get jobs in journalism, which were, you know, sadly not forthcoming. I majored in them to doing more kind of proper climate reporting, focusing on movements and the kind of people who were fighting things like fossil fuel infrastructure. And then I kind of came to a more sort of policy stuff.

[00:03:31] And I'm kind of everything, everything in between. And so now I'm no I'm a full time journalist, which is it's nice to be able to say at the New Republic that the New Republic is right.

[00:03:40] Yes, OK.

[00:03:41] I'm curious about whether because you do often write about how policy gets built around the climate issue. So I wonder if you consider yourself a climate journalist or a politics journal is and really like whether you think there's a difference between the two and if so, kind of how you would define that.

[00:03:59] Yeah, it's funny, me.

[00:04:00] My official title at The New Republic is Staff Writer, and I work on the Climate B that ends up just going into a lot of different directions about because climate changes ubiquitous, right? I mean, I don't think there a there's a piece of policy that isn't isn't affected by it.

[00:04:23] And I work a lot of the fossil fuel industry and that was bound up in all sorts of things. That's finance or monetary policy trade. And I am interested in the sort of questions of political economy stems from looking, looking a lot of the fossil fuel industry in large part. So I guess I guess I'd call myself a climate climate journalist insofar as climate is is a lot of things and not you know, I don't actually spend too much time looking at the latest scientific reports necessarily or even what's happening at the EPA, which which some of their reporters have done really, really get great coverage on. But I yeah, kind of kind of look at where, you know, institutions, mostly institutions in the United States are sort of butting up against against the climate and then having a big impact on that.

[00:05:24] And I think that can go a lot of places that wouldn't tend to be in the climate beat. So, yeah, I don't know. I think I like the title of staff writer because it's it's big enough to give me a lot of a lot of leeway.

[00:05:38] Yeah, yeah. I keep playing back and forth on this about like, you know, there's been sort of I don't know, I think there's been maybe like three cycles and media like having climate be a super separate thing and then integrating it and then like realizing that that is not working and like having a climate vertical again and like going back and forth. I think maybe the solution really is just to have more either politics reporters or sort of general assignment reporters that do have some kind of background in climate. Because it does. It crosses into everything.

[00:06:12] Yeah. When Amy says vertical, she means section. Yes. That's what a vertical is.

[00:06:17] I've learned that. Sorry. I needed to speak the name of.

[00:06:24] Yeah. The name of my vertical. The vertical I work on at the New Republic is Apocalypse Soon. So that means need different things. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:39] Yeah. It does seem like folks who have been into an online climate for a long time really can't see it as this intersecting kind of thing, which is like really, really interesting to me because it is a story that.

[00:06:54] Touches on every little thing. But I think that, like, people can't see it outside of the technicalities of a. Out of the pool, outside of the policies of a.. I get this a lie. As a writer, like people see me as a climate writer and they're like, oh, you must want to analyze this policy and write an article about him like that is not even close to anything I've ever written before. I don't know why.

[00:07:16] Maybe actually that's a good that's a good lead in to talk about on this third question. We want to ask you, which is if you could change one thing about the narratives surrounding climate change. What would it be? You could have more than one if you feel really strongly about mine.

[00:07:31] Can I say just this one is hard.

[00:07:34] I know it's very happy for tougher.

[00:07:38] I think the biggest one for me would be.

[00:07:43] Well, actually, I mean, just, you know, Zuba mentioning is just how siloed it is in that, you know, I think from a politics just gets considered a standalone topic that is about parts per million of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, about, you know, cap and trade laws or whatever is happening in Washington.

[00:08:07] But, yeah, I mean, I think part of the problem in media, which maybe we can talk a little bit more about, is that people really get sort of in their in their beats. And so it can be hard to see kind of bigger stories and just really consider the problem and its whole complexity, which was this hugely messy, complicated thing that maps onto people's lives and all of these messy, complicated and interesting ways.

[00:08:33] And so I don't think it goes so far as saying we shouldn't write climate story is right.

[00:08:39] But but I think, you know, just looking at all the ways in which climate is already in so many and so many other stories, you know, it's hard for me to say what concretely that that would look like.

[00:08:50] Yeah. I mean, I think just just recognizing that. But every, you know, more story is the monarch climate stories.

[00:08:56] I'd be hard pressed to think of a story that's not a climate story. Yeah. You know, it's like it even when climate is not mentioned, it's like a silent P at the beginning of a war like this.

[00:09:07] They're not for announcing it. Now, maybe if you're ranting about, like the Great British Bake Off or something.

[00:09:15] Oh, no, because there were quite a few episodes where they couldn't cook in the tent because it was too hot. Yeah. Yeah. And what about like access to certain ingredients, for example? I mean, it's a big waste. Yeah. But I can that's like my dinner party trick and it's probably why I stopped getting invited to dinner to a lot free party. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, you find your climate people and like everybody suck. Yeah. But no, before that people would be like, oh, here she comes again.

[00:09:52] I think we might have a similar presence at dinner parties. Yeah.

[00:09:59] Enjoy that. Butter is the last meal. Actually, that's something that's been bugging me lately. Is that because I also I too am like the harbinger of death.

[00:10:11] But it's been really bugging me that like there's this idea I was talking to Mary about this just the other day. This there's this idea that, like, if you talk about the problems or like, you know, sort of the historic reasons that we have an active climate, then it's like you're kind of accused of being too negative or focusing on the solutions and whatever into me. I feel like, you know, understanding the problem is part of the solution. And it's like social change and policy change are like among the biggest solutions that we need. So I don't I don't get that whole idea, though.

[00:10:56] Right. It almost always comes from people who have never been through therapy, you know, because like it's like people who are new to therapy always like, all right, fix me up, dad. Give me the drug. Give me a little like the little coping mechanism or whatever is like, bitch, sit on the couch.

[00:11:11] You got some shit to unpack me to. We through this, right. Like you are way more fucked up. And you think it's true that there's this like huge.

[00:11:20] I actually see it as a somewhat kind of, I don't know, like patriarchal or or like male take that. It's like oh like I'm like a that one person is going to solve the problem and that one knowledge. Right. One like innovation is going to be the thing.

[00:11:39] And like right now, everybody wants the quick fix. Exactly. There is an earthquake and this is not a quick problem.

[00:11:46] I think if if there are another narrative about how about climate change, I don't want to change, you would be just issuing a blanket ban.

[00:11:54] Stories about this being the solution to climate change. Yeah, if I were if I were media dictator, I think I would.

[00:12:03] I would do that. Yeah. Do you have aspirations on media dictatorship?

[00:12:08] Definitely not. Definitely not. But, you know, I think standards are helpful. I mean, you can tell us it's OK, but that's not the job I want.

[00:12:19] You know, in the command and control future.

[00:12:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't necessarily want that job either, but I do want Andrew Sullivan's job. Yeah, I agree. I wholeheartedly support the.

[00:12:43] I mean, we talked about this a lot, that climate is as much a power problem or a social problem as it is a science and technology problem, if not more.

[00:12:53] And, you know, we continue to see pretty often political reporting not reflecting that like really sticking to it's about technology and the energy sources that we'll use.

[00:13:08] So I'm curious just kind of what you think about that. And then we're gonna make you read from some of your own work, which does a fantastic job of not forgetting that there are these like, you know, power dynamics at play in in the political sphere on climate. But, yeah, like what do you think about how political reporting in general kind of tends to paint the climate problem?

[00:13:32] Yeah, it's really entering this a little bit before.

[00:13:35] But I think a lot of this comes down to just some really boring factors about what it's like to work in a media organization.

[00:13:43] And, you know, The New York Times, for instance, has a climate desk that, you know, [00:13:47]the people who work on the politics desk don't necessarily understand, understand climate change. Editors don't necessarily get it. [9.3s]

[00:13:57] [00:13:57]And I think folks who, you know, are reporting on climate aren't encouraged to like to to bring in other sources. [9.4s] And I think, you know, everybody has its sort of videos increases.

[00:14:11] But I think that the range of sources that people are encouraged to talk to as sort of climate reporters proper, I can make that sort of understanding harder. So, you know, you see a lot of quotes, for instance, at.

[00:14:29] Mainstream outlets, whether it's The Washington Post or other other places, all of which, you know, I think I think most outlets have great ironworkers on on staff.

[00:14:38] And I just want to I want to say that that a lot of the source of the people come are a the people who are easy to talk to on short notice because people have deadlines. And so, you know, often that's people at think tanks. That's folks who are based in D.C. or politicians or whatever. And, you know, it's not always as easy, depending on what your kind of network of sources is, to talk to people and movements, for instance, to talk to people who are living on the front lines of climate change or fenceline with fossil fuel infrastructure.

[00:15:15] That is tough work, that takes time, that takes resources to, you know, build relationships and source relationships with people.

[00:15:23] And that can be hard in in in a quick news cycle. And, you know, as is the case with a lot of sort of climate desks in when when you're, you know, one of very few reporters who are doing that and, you know, our need to produce stories every so often. So I think that's, you know, the the sort of media part of it.

[00:15:47] I think there's a bigger there's a bigger question of just, you know, the the trajectory of climate politics in the last 30 years, which is a thorn everyone, I think, which is that, you know, the sort of mainstream policy conversation where where a lot of reporters tend to focus and where, you know, editors in particular would like people to focus at big outlets is a conversation that happens almost entirely in the Beltway.

[00:16:20] It happens almost entirely in Washington. And it's not, you know, has its own sort of weird look at power dynamics.

[00:16:28] But that is just like can be so sort of blinkered about like which Congressman is talking to which think tank is talking to who in the White House about, you know, X. Right. And to who are amendment to a certain bill.

[00:16:44] And that, you know, is not I think that the part of politics. But I don't think that's that's politics proper. And it's not you know, I don't think a holistic understanding of all of the crazy power dynamics that that play into the fossil fuel industry. And, you know, there's a reluctance to talk about funding, talk about kind of like, you know, not just lobbying and political donations, but also like who funds the think tank that that people are going to for for their sources, which, you know, I think Drilled has been, you know, create a great look at some of those dynamics, but can get left out of, you know, whatever. Twelve hundred word story that people are to finally write a certain time.

[00:17:29] I actually had been thinking about the think tank thing a lot lately, and just like how problematic that whole system is and like how little value would actually prefer to anything.

[00:17:42] Yeah, I don't know. I just. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, Mary, you were going to say as yet.

[00:17:48] Well, yeah, I was. I'm excited to have Kate read from two pieces that I think really touch on something that I think is kind of unspoken in the climate political landscape, and that is that both parties are kind of in an identity crisis.

[00:18:04] It feels like one is that like on the Democratic side, it sort of feels like we've seen this flurry of climate plans come out and there's just all of this praise. Every single time I see an article about one of them is like, this is the most progressive climate policy in history. But there is a big thing that that sort of analysis kind of misses. And the other is that, like the GOP or the right wing is kind of coming around to accepting climate change. And that is not necessarily a good thing.

[00:18:40] I'll stop there and let Kate read this to select excerpts from the first piece is The Limits of Democrats.

[00:18:48] Climate progress plans are better than they were. The plans are not enough. What are the plans for, though?

[00:18:54] It's ostensibly my job to analyze these kinds of climate plans on their own terms. The whole exercise is starting to feel pretty pointless. Documents like the task force, recommendations like presidential campaign platforms or the House Committee on the Climate Crisis Report really only indicate where we're starting from. So far, all the plans that offer likely produced warming greater than two degrees Celsius. And that's a relatively rosy scenario while projected deaths are admittedly trickier to calculate than recorded deaths. Let's judge climate policies by how many people they'll kill anywhere based on our best scientific understanding of the problem. Let's not judge them based on the progress they show compared to more obviously inadequate plans or for the love of God. By how much the cost? Even in cold and conservative economic terms, the cost of 2.5 or three degrees of warming will outstrip the cost of preventing it by tens of trillions of dollars. Every person who dies of a climate field disaster is a sign of failure of policymakers ability to mitigate rising temperatures and adapt to a hotter world.

[00:19:58] The past failures have made inevitable.

[00:20:02] Next piece is the threat of a GOP that accepts climate change. But even if some kind of business friendly climate action does emerge from a post Trump Republican Party, there's no reason to think it wouldn't still involve support for polluters trying to find path to a larger profit. Nor would a shift in messaging on climate caused the party to abandon its overarching commitments. More would a shift in messaging on climate cause the party to abandon its other overarching commitments with its travel bans and harden borders ready to halt refugees fleeing heat, drought and disaster? The GOP is already writing a form of climate policy. Even if it would never call, though, should it start to openly embrace something like climate action? The party would almost certainly retain the racism and xenophobia that has animated it for decades. Fuzing them into green policies is far from what progressive climate activists might hope for.

[00:20:55] Yeah, that's so good.

[00:20:56] I know I've been thinking a lot lately about how the term climate denier or like climate denial like isn't doesn't include enough of these kinds of things.

[00:21:09] Look like we've talked a lot on this show about the climate realists and and like this, you know, this idea that like, yeah, a lot of far right wing people totally accept that climate change is happening, but their action on it will be to consolidate their power and wealth. And that that is also a climate action. Right. It's just not the one that we want.

[00:21:33] Right. And that they're already doing get it right.

[00:21:35] Like, borderline death is totally a climate plan. These closings of borders are totally a climate plan, right?

[00:21:44] Yeah. And it's American. It's like so this like weird France doesn't exist anywhere else on earth. Yeah. You vaguely like Australia.

[00:21:51] But yeah, you had another piece that was like the Democrats climate plan is weirdly isolationist about how even on the left, so to speak. Look, they're still not thinking about the rest of the world because you can't just, like, solve climate change in one country and not in another. That's not solving climate change.

[00:22:11] It's just American exceptionalism gone wild. Yeah, it's truly insane.

[00:22:15] Yeah. It is interesting to me that I think that the moderate I'm using air quotes, but you can't see the moderate idea or conversation around climate change.

[00:22:25] I'm not even so sure if it's moderate or if it's like stuck in the past by 20 years because they don't.

[00:22:33] I don't see how you're paying attention today and don't see that the Republican Party is coming around to climate change and that that doesn't mean something good will end.

[00:22:42] And then that is literally where we were in nineteen ninety one and like. Right. I mean it's like it's probably a little bit behind where we were in 1991, you know. So like this idea that that is somehow progress is really sad.

[00:22:59] And the also I'm really interested in this idea about the Democrats climate progress always being like, oh, well, this is so much more advanced than it was in 2016. But you know what else is more advanced?

[00:23:12] Climate change. Way more advanced, buddy. Like. So what?

[00:23:16] Like it it's just like imagine a doctor treating you for like a horrible disease five years too late and starting the process of treating you where they should have started five years ago. Yeah. Are you going to be happy with that doctor?

[00:23:31] You're going to feel like that's a death sentence and they're not even actually starting just, you know, saying they have this great treatment plan. Exactly. Failing to actually treat you.

[00:23:43] I mean, it's just I think, you know, there's this sort of, like, silo question that we got on to earlier.

[00:23:51] But I also just think, like the fluency climate folks on racism and xenophobia has just a mainstream kind of folks.

[00:24:03] I'll say in particular is really, you know, doing a lot of doing a lot of catching up to where, you know, environmental justice folks have been for a while, the word climate justice spokesman for a while.

[00:24:15] But I think for a lot of folks, there's a sort of like, you know, there's still too many steps to to have them be able to make that like a natural response.

[00:24:27] Right. To to think about these two things in the same breath that thankfully, you know, I think more people are getting comfortable with.

[00:24:52] Media outlets seem to be sort of afraid of talking about race and climate. At the same time afraid and also just generally bad at it.

[00:25:02] Well, I think maybe that's why they are afraid. Yeah. So it kind of seems like.

[00:25:08] Yeah. Editors are kind of missing the point that these two are connected. It was really interesting on our last one of our last shows, we had Kendra Louis appear on from The New York Times and she said something that I thought was really interesting, which was that both climate and race are seen as activists issues. And if you put them together, then that's just too much, I think.

[00:25:28] What are you trying to do here?

[00:25:31] I wonder if you have kind of come up against that, because especially in this since late May when all of these uprisings started coming about, I kind of feel like a lot of climate journalists were like, again, not the time, you know, kind of like the way we did with Kobe. Like it it kind of takes the climate community a while to figure out how to talk about the intersections and how to talk about climate in conjunction with another crisis, which is concerning because it's gonna keep intersecting with other crises.

[00:26:04] Like that's never not gonna be a thing that it does.

[00:26:08] But yeah, when it came around to, you know, the George Foy protest and Briona Taylor and arm in arm BARBREE, everybody was kind of like, maybe we should cool it with the climate talk now, whereas I noticed in your work you absolutely didn't miss a beat. So, yeah, I was wondering if you came up against any of that, like, wait a minute, you should not talk about this right now.

[00:26:32] Thankfully, denim, which is probably just a credit to my editors who are we're very happy to have me.

[00:26:41] Help me write pieces like that pretty pretty soon after.

[00:26:46] But, yeah, I mean, I think they're just so, so much the language around race and climate is so limited.

[00:26:52] I think a lot of it, when it does come up, which is not enough, tends to be the sort of Shaw started disparity. Right. Is that. No. That's absolutely true. That's that's undeniably true.

[00:27:07] Which is that people of color, black folks, are more affected by climate change, by environmental racism, by pollution. You know, all the sort of footprints of the fossil fuel industry. And I think there's a little bit of a hesitation to talk about extraction a little more generally and that are kind of being built on extraction Brummie. Right. And still is. And in so many ways of fossil fuels of labor people. And that, you know, is what has kept our economy going. And, you know, I think that can get it can sound a little bit esoteric. But I think there are just real sort of consequences that come up and demands like define that, please, which is that we have budgets which are written to criminalize black and brown folks. And those budgets are not are not being devoted toward climate action. If you know 50 percent of the city of the city spendings is going toward police. That is not money which is going toward climate adaptation and resilience and mitigation and all those things.

[00:28:22] And so I just think there's like it's that can be sort of hard step to make if, you know, there isn't some kind of baseline. I think you're standing a political academy.

[00:28:35] Yeah, sure. I also think it's interesting that people kind of feel like race and climate need to be separate when the most successful climate champions in office who ran the whole campaigns on green new deals are generally people of color and generally talk about climate and race, single, seamlessly and interconnected. Lee, I'm thinking of like Charles Booker and Jamal Bowman and AOC, all of whom you've covered and like that. That's what gets people energized. And it's it's weird to me because when I hear people saying that they need to be separate or discussed separately, I hear them saying that basically they think black people are too dumb to understand climate change. You know, like we can't understand the idea of having more than one crisis at a time. Meanwhile, our literal entire existence has always been dealing with more than one crisis at a time.

[00:29:28] We've never had the luxury to Drilled one thing at a time. Yeah, yeah.

[00:29:36] So I will just, like, pay homage to a piece that you wrote in The New Republic about Jamal Bowman and the democratic insurgency that can help save the planet about his campaign and also a piece from Dharna Nor an Earth Hour about the Tuesday primaries that you didn't hear about. But we're a big deal for the Green New Deal. And that was about like even the people who weren't going to Washington, like state level houses. People ran on a green new deal. And what she was saying, I thought was really interesting is that these candidates, because of Green New Deal, is so vague, so to speak. Or you could say there's just open people were able to interpret the Green New Deal to mean whatever would be best for the environment or for environmental justice and their exact community. So like Charles Booker interpreted it to be more about coal because he's in Kentucky and other people. You know, I think somebody in Texas interpreted it to be more about like the oil rigs. So that actually she was saying that that shows the power of the green deal as opposed like it's been framed as this as a weakness because it isn't as well defined.

[00:30:46] Yeah. Yeah, I, I agree.

[00:30:51] And then I think, you know, the the way especially that, you know Jamal Bowman and you know, you talk about a.

[00:31:00] It's just it's not complicated. It's like I just think of, you know, Nancy talking about her grandmother who died in Hurricane Maria because his home lost power.

[00:31:14] Right.

[00:31:14] That's so many things that I think, you know, can get over complicated. And, you know, if you were to lay down on paper would be like four different issues across four different beats. But it's just all it all comes together in ways that are very easy to understand if you're actually experiencing them. Yeah. But yeah.

[00:31:33] So just yeah. I think a lot of it is just straight up racism, you know, like people are afraid of black people and afraid of like having a real conversation with black people like There,. They think that we're angry. They think that we're going to yell at them if they talk. If, you know, you come and talk to us about climate change, which, you know, that might happen if you show up and say, well, actually, you shouldn't be worried about police violence, you should be worried about climate change instead. Like, if you go there, yeah. You're probably going to piss people off. That's kind of not cute.

[00:32:06] So you just don't do that.

[00:32:08] Yeah. It's just like reporting, right? It's like go talk to people.

[00:32:13] I mean, that is that is how I've learned most of what I know. And it's just so I feel grateful to get to do that.

[00:32:21] I feel like that's true. You know, something we were talking about with Kendra last time as well about the differences between neutrality and objectivity.

[00:32:32] And yeah, that there, that what we've often called objectivity is just been a way to cow people into upholding the status quo. Yeah.

[00:32:42] And just like pretending that you don't have a perspective is bullshit. Right. Right. Totally.

[00:32:48] Yeah. And yeah. And not to get like. And I didn't come into this podcast wanting to, quote, grab you. But look at Antonio grammes, you know, just your color.

[00:33:02] Oh, OK. But like, Germany is a real thing, right?

[00:33:04] Like we you know, the way that we talk about certain things is is pre defined.

[00:33:10] And that's not a political that's just the politics that are around us. And so if it falls within that, you know, it's fine.

[00:33:18] But that's that's not politics. It's all ideology. It just happens to be the one that's that's in power. Thanks.

[00:33:37] So I think a really good way to talk about this, like the intersections between race and climate is like specifically look at a policy itself.

[00:33:48] So everybody is talking about defunding the police.

[00:33:52] This was had in the streets right now and for very good reason.

[00:33:57] And I think that there's been a lot of talk in an exciting way about how defunding the police really is a climate policy.

[00:34:05] So we've got two pieces here that I wanted to read from kind of frame up this this part of the conversation. The first is defunding the police's an environmental justice issue by Drew Costly.

[00:34:19] Police create some types of pollutions that people don't normally think about, money that funds police. As she notes, can be used to improve the environment. And the mere presence of police and communities of color can be considered an environmental stressor. The kinds of pollution that law enforcement agencies bring into communities include noise pollution created by sirens and cars, light pollution from floodlights and high crime areas, and emissions from police vehicles that are constantly driving around because black communities and communities of color are often heavily police. They are the people who must bear the burden of this pollution.

[00:34:57] And the second is from Tamara Tull's A Loft Man who is the head of North America at 350 RRC. Call it, If you care about the planet, you must dismantle white supremacy.

[00:35:11] The call to defund police isn't that much of a stretch from divestment from the fossil fuel industry, a commonly accepted rallying cry in many environmental advocacy circles. Divestment from fossil fuels is seen as a smart response to climate risks. It's about building a world of solutions with investment and community care and repair, such as green jobs and infrastructure, human health center resources and recovery for those most impacted by the climate crisis. And it's not just about carbon emissions. Racism is deeply embedded in the business model of the fossil fuel industry. In order to extract resources, there are always sacrifice zones, usually black, indigenous or other communities of color that are put in harm's way and plunged into a violent and multigenerational cycle of economic disinvestment. The history of devastation and the disproportionate impacts of the climate crisis on people of color are well-known for those reasons. The more we didn't just call for leaders to regulate the fossil fuel industry, we call for it to be dismantled for the sake of a livable future. Similarly, calls to defund the police are about reducing the scope, size and role of ineffective and racist law enforcement in favor of investment in education, health care, trauma, healing work and community solutions. The idea is the same make way for a bolder visionary care by repairing harms caused by the communities made vulnerable by business as usual.

[00:36:34] So I know that you've also written about this and Jeff and Becky has also written about it device how these things are just not they're not different.

[00:36:45] They're not only like analogous, like There, logit the same thing.

[00:36:49] Investing in that framework from a Movement for Black Lives policy platform, I think just puts this so well.

[00:36:56] Investing in the types of things that make communities safe, which is not possible for your host. And it's not pleasing. Right. That's, you know, health care.

[00:37:05] Education needs like low carbon parts of the economy.

[00:37:09] That is often work done by people of color and women.

[00:37:14] It's so interesting to me, too, that like the the reaction, you know, 10 years ago to two, divestment was so similar to the reaction. I see people having to defund the peace. Now, it was it's like this.

[00:37:26] Well, I don't expect the fossil fuel industry to just go away, Guy. I do, actually.

[00:37:31] Yes, I do think that actually that reminds me of that essay from my Chris Hayes, the new abolitionist, where he talks about like divestment as the new abolitionism and how once upon a time, you know, during slavery, people were like, wait a second, like we can't exist without slavery.

[00:37:49] Right. We need freely her.

[00:37:53] And, you know, they did find a way around that. There's prisons. So, you know, very similar Straight-line Brulle straight. But, yeah, just like how it's just when you are in the middle of something. I'm just going to say evil is hard to imagine something else because you're just so inside of it. It's yes. It's interesting.

[00:38:16] Also, I just want to point out from Drew's piece, it was really interesting to hear him bring up like the pollution that Perea like the direct generation.

[00:38:25] Yeah, that was interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't thought about that at all. I thought, too, that.

[00:38:31] Kate, your thing about the funding was important to mention too, that like, you know, one of the things we hear all the time about transition and green jobs and all of this stuff is is the cost thing. Right. But then look at bottom policing. We have a story coming out in Drilled later this week that like about the inmate firefighters in Arizona, which get far less coverage than the inmate firefighters in California.

[00:39:01] And they actually have they use more imprisoned firefighters in Arizona than free like paid firefighters, which blows my frickin mind.

[00:39:14] Like, that's crazy. You know. So this I don't know, this idea, that lake.

[00:39:20] Is that a new development? No, it's not new. It's just like I don't think it's been reported. I haven't seen it anywhere. And I was like, Arizona is one of the places where they're having more and more wildfires that are bigger and bigger every year.

[00:39:33] And they're going to need more and more of this. And guess what? They're they're like funding the the Forest Management Department, which is what pays for firefighting less and less.

[00:39:43] And the the department of whatever prisons and whatever they call it, the prison system more and more.

[00:40:01] OK. So I want to talk about this eco modernism and degrowth stuff, actually kind of related to what we're just talking about, because I feel like essentially they have very different views on capitalism and the role of capitalism in solving a lot of our poor today.

[00:40:20] That's a real boil down like assessment of these two theories.

[00:40:25] But, you know, there's been I've been seeing more and more of this popping up in the media around the conversation dealing with Planet of the Humans, which is the Michael Moore documentary.

[00:40:36] Now we have this book from Michael Shellenberger called Apocalypse Never. And we also have a book from Lomborg called False Alarm. Both of those books are arguing that people are just freaking out.

[00:40:49] Publishing is so good now. I mean, you know, Apocalypse never is a bestseller now.

[00:40:56] So there's been a little bit of a little bit of like not even wanting to engage with it. I think thing in in the the ranks of middle journalists, which I completely understand is having read it and interviewed him like it.

[00:41:11] It takes a lot of time to pass because he's very good at like including just enough true things that you can't just dismiss it out of hand.

[00:41:23] What's going on his own is like burning up. The Arctic is on fire. But his thing. I mean, the whole thing.

[00:41:32] I really I think, you know, the ego modernist movement was really born out of this idea that environmentalists were being dumb about, you know, wholeheartedly dismissing nuclear energy as part of the solution on climate.

[00:41:49] And I actually don't totally disagree with that. I think that there was some holdover from early environmentalists that, you know, were very anti-nuclear for for good reason in some cases, you know, in reaction to things that it happened at like Three Mile Island and various other big nuclear disasters, Chernobyl, you know, which is now an HBO docu series or whatever mini series and nuclear news there were.

[00:42:17] Right.

[00:42:18] I mean, even I'm I'm, you know, like a young Gen X or an even in when I was going through school, there were a lot of of like there was a lot of discussion around the potential for nuclear war and how scary that was.

[00:42:33] So that was a real part of the environmental movement for a very long time. And so both Michael Shellenberger and Ted Nordhaus, who co-founded the Breakthrough Institute in the early 2000s, kind of came out against what they called big greed. And one of their big arguments was that you guys are being dumb about technology and you're being dumb about nuclear. So, you know, that's why that's where I'm saying, like, there's certain aspects of of shelling Bergers book where I don't totally disagree that, like, the environmental movement's stance on nuclear has been problematic.

[00:43:11] But for some reason, he feels the need to, like, kind of undermine everything the environmental movement has ever done.

[00:43:21] And then, you know, paint this idea that climate change is like not that big of a problem in order to get to his ultimate final solution, which is like nuclear powering everything. And I don't know, I almost get the sense that he's like, if people ignore climate change long enough, they'll have to do nuclear in a big way because that'll be the only solution.

[00:43:44] Yeah. But like, aren't we. There we are again.

[00:43:46] But that's actually so that is actually the argument that both Nordhaus and Shellenberger have been making, which is if you guys really thought that we were in the dire straits that you're saying you would all be rabid pro nuclear advocates and you're not.

[00:44:02] Therefore, you're full of shit that is like a big part of There,.

[00:44:06] Oh, my gosh. This is definitely one of those cases of going so far to the left that you come right back around on the right. It's like crazy uncles with money.

[00:44:15] Yes. That is a big part of it now. A big part of their whole thing, too, is that, look, guys, if we chat, we can just use technology to solve all of these problems and to not have to deal with any of the social things and let the market solve it. That's another big argument that goes. And that's where I feel like they really butt up against the degrowth guys who are like, no, there are natural limits to growth. We need to self imposed those limits or else nature will do it for us. And, you know, you can't just have this sort of like endless economic growth. Actually, like Ted Nordhaus recently told me that he doesn't believe in an endless growth. That's the first time I've heard.

[00:45:00] Any of them say that? We'll see maybe There, evolving their thinking on that.

[00:45:05] I don't know. But but anyway, the reason I wanted to talk about it, what was that? You know, I keep seeing references to these things pop up in media stories.

[00:45:15] And if you don't have this, like, whole background of the last 15 years of these guys and there's a lot of stuff that you can miss about what they're proposing, there is that open question for me, which is, you know, slightly conspiratorial, but it's just like who is? I don't know who funds the birthright to and would be very curious to find that. Oh. I mean, even on their own terms, like, yeah, I just I just find it.

[00:45:42] So there's it's like there are still some weird stuff, like there's you know, Breakthru guys end up doing a lot of stuff with the genetic literacy project, which is like a pro GMO group funded by Monsanto, for example. And I'm I'm sort of like, where does that even come into play with with climate? Again, it's like a bunch of people who have a ton of money and time on their hands, like sitting in a college dorm room theorizing about the world. But they have like way more influence and power than most. Oh, it's like. Yeah. I don't know.

[00:46:19] Yeah, I, I have been like kind of freaked out by this like new wave of climate denial and delay. Yeah. Like even just starting with the Michael Moore film, there's like a badge of luck fucking best seller. Well yeah, it's, it's really it's creepy because I feel like people want to give up when it comes to climate, like because it is such a big and scary and heart problem.

[00:46:42] If someone comes along and says actually it's not so appealing.

[00:46:46] So lightly. Yeah. Exactly. It's like, oh, okay.

[00:46:49] Well I guess I can go binge my Netflix series or whatever, focus on whatever other problem. Right. It kind of like reminds me of like that David Wallace Wells piece from back in December where he said like, oh actually maybe it's not as bad as I thought it was, but it's still really fucking bad. And like all of these people kind of glommed on it to it being like, see, they were overreacting, right?

[00:47:12] Exactly. Exactly.

[00:47:13] When the reality is that, yes, it's avoidable, but that doesn't mean that it will be easy to avoid the most catastrophic. Yes. Onces.

[00:47:23] And there's just no like there's nothing really that can come out now where trimm disproof, like the basic point which was happening to decarbonized as quickly as humanly possible, like There, and, you know, our debates within the scientific community because it's a community premised on debate.

[00:47:42] So it's kind of a process that really I mean, that's such a huge problem, too.

[00:47:45] I think, like the vast majority of people have no understanding of how science works or how scientists communicate and the fact that debate and uncertainty are like key aspects of every scientific conversation.

[00:48:01] Right. Right. Right. And how it's been weaponized. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:09] And just it's just like uncomfortable thing.

[00:48:11] We're like, you know, I. I find the.

[00:48:16] The sort of phrase like believe silence, there's this sort of like religious quality to it that that sort of turns me off.

[00:48:25] But it's I mean, it's just so it's so polar as it like.

[00:48:30] Yeah. You need to defend scientists in some way.

[00:48:33] But also that's it's not exactly like what I think, you know, thoughtful scientists argue necessarily.

[00:48:42] And just navigating that nuance, it's just so yummy.

[00:48:46] Yes.

[00:48:52] But yeah, no, I wanted to talk about this piece in Time magazine by Justin Werlin that I think was actually pretty stellar. It's a cover story for their July issue, is it? Well, one of their July issues, because I think their weekly called is a defining moment in the fight against climate change.

[00:49:11] But before we get into that, I want us to talk a little bit about a concept that Kate introduced into the climate lexicon last year called the Climate Sadda Boy Kate.

[00:49:23] Can you explain for our listeners who have not read that piece?

[00:49:26] What is the climate said boy.

[00:49:29] Yeah. And I started off I should give credit to my coauthor, Atlas, about a study I think may have actually quite lot. Oh, OK. So just to give fair. Yeah. Fair credit where it's due.

[00:49:41] I said, boy, a climate sad boy I would define as a set of mostly white male authors who have what do the climate crisis, you know, read some PDAF or something and come to the conclusion that there's nothing we can do so and feel really bad about the outlook or are very sad about the fact that there is nothing that can be done. And conclude from there that we should just.

[00:50:16] We as an interesting term there, because I think that we.

[00:50:22] But they uses mainly mainly talking about them and their sort of particular place in the world. But that, you know, it's just time to accept accept our fate.

[00:50:36] And as Jonathan Franzen suggested and in a New Yorker article from two years ago, I think at this point, maybe, maybe, maybe it was last year better to just harvest our community garden and just find things that give you meaning in the short term. And just, you know, any any attempt to sort of mitigate climate changes is a lost cause.

[00:50:58] And so let's just settle down and accept accept what's coming. And, you know, here's my five thousand word essay that I got fifty thousand dollars to write about.

[00:51:12] Yeah.

[00:51:13] And I kind of think that that piece might have killed the era of the climate. Sad boy.

[00:51:19] I hope so. You'll be so seen as your greatest achievement as a writer.

[00:51:24] I haven't seen a lot of sad Bway, you know, manifestoes circulating out there. And that's why I wanted to put it into context or into conversation with this piece from Justin, who is not a kind of sad boy. He's also black. He's a black writer. And so it's the first time I've ever seen a black writer have a cover story in a major magazine about climate. And I think the way that he approaches it is just wildly different from what you just described. So I'm just going to read I not so quick excerpt.

[00:51:59] OK, so the title of this piece says it's a defining moment in the fight against climate change.

[00:52:05] We're standing at a climate crossroads. The world has already warmed one point one degrees Celsius since the industrial revolution. If we passed two degrees Celsius, we risk hitting one or more major tipping points where the effects of climate change go from advancing gradually to changing dramatically overnight, reshaping the planet to ensure we don't pass that threshold. We need to cut emissions in half by 2030. Climate change has understandably fallen out of the public eye this year as the corona virus pandemic rages. Nevertheless, this year, or perhaps this year and next is likely to be the most pivotal yet in the fight against climate change. We've run out of time to build new things in old ways, says Rob Jackson, an Earth Systems science professor at Stanford University and the chair of the Global Carbon Project. What we do now will define the fate of the planet and human life on it. For decades. The timeframe for effective climate action was always going to be tight. But the corona virus pandemic has shrunk it further. Scientists and policymakers expected the green transition to occur over the next decade. But the pandemic has pushed 10 years of anticipated investment in everything from power plants to road trips into a month long timeframe. Countries have already spent 11 trillion to help stem the economic damage from coal at night team. They could spend trillions more in the next six months. That recovery strategies are likely to be formulated and the path is set, says Nicholas Stern.

[00:53:32] We don't know where the chips will fall. Will a newfound respect for science and a fear of future shocks lead us to finally wake up? Or will the desire to return to normal overshadow the threats lurking just around the corner?

[00:53:47] So, yeah, what I think is so incredibly different from what you get from the climate Sabawi is that he's able to live in the uncertainty.

[00:53:55] Right. Yeah, because the saveloy always has to know exactly how the movie's going to end. And there's definitely somebody you don't want to watch a movie with, ever. Yes.

[00:54:07] Yeah, so I mean that the pieces so good. And just to.

[00:54:15] To reiterate, basically, it's just that I guess you can know all of these things and not say the world is going to end. And that you are like the unique holder of that knowledge, right.

[00:54:26] Some sort of oracle. Right. Right. Yeah. We know what the solutions are.

[00:54:35] It's not a lack of solutions, actually. Right.

[00:54:39] Because even though, like solar and wind have grown exponentially over the past, you know, couple of decades, that was with massive underinvestment.

[00:54:50] Imagine if we had actually invested like we if we put our minds to it, we really could solve this problem.

[00:54:56] And I know I'm saying we by I really mean they I mean the big corporations and the decision makers.

[00:55:03] I'm talking about her rerouted, you know, fossil fuel subsidies to. Yeah. Clean energy and link. Exactly. Easy, easy stuff. Right?

[00:55:13] Yeah. Part of it. I mean, part of the thing that I think that that piece you just read from really hits out that the boys are so are so bad.

[00:55:21] Is that like you imagine that there is this like cutoff point after that we've already crossed probably in most of their views after which like, well, it's over. Gordon it's time to like time to give up. Right.

[00:55:34] And that's just not how the car wrecks, how everything works. So like most punk as reactions to me, if I felt like, oh, it's too hard now, fuck it. I really think it's like this.

[00:55:48] This. And I feel like this with the ego moderators. Do the mad boys and the sad boys. It's that it's honestly it's white men who are so used to having control over their lives, like butting up against their very first experience of things, being wildly out of their control, and no one asking them to decide what the solution is like. And they're just fuckin wild about it. You know, like.

[00:56:14] Right. Yeah, right.

[00:56:16] And on the other end of the Mad Boys and the Sad Boys are also I will posit the GLADD also get to.

[00:56:25] Say more.

[00:56:26] What's going to work out with Mike? We've got this under control. Once it gets really bad, they'll fix a Volvo of like. They're also not used to people not caring about their life. Right. So, like, they can't fathom this idea. They like no one coming.

[00:56:42] I mean, surely someone will fix it. Yes, exactly.

[00:56:46] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like, they they're not. So they think the problem is like like, oh, there, solutions. And people just don't know about the solutions. We just have to tell them about solutions. And then they, you know, I'd be glad.

[00:56:58] Boy becomes a sabawi when they realize that oh they don't care about us or our insurance systems of power that don't always benefit me. What.

[00:57:10] How did that how did that happen? It's so psychological. It's just like such a it is.

[00:57:16] I don't know. Most people just go to therapy certain a certain certain subset of white guys, like imposes their theories on the world, you know, and it's like, God, if you guys just couldn't deal with, like, processing your emotions on your own.

[00:57:30] That would mean rage.

[00:57:32] No. Psychiatry is a green job. Thank you, everyone. Everyone should have a have have access to therapy and brokering a deal. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:42] Also, yeah. If you think your emotions are facts.

[00:57:48] A friend of mine put it, I think well about this dynamic, which is that if you're like a very, you know, financially secure or well-heeled white man, there just are not that many threats to your survival. So you scan the horizon and then like the thing that you see is climate change.

[00:58:09] And that just really set you off in a very strange journey.

[00:58:15] Yes. Some very strange ideas.

[00:58:17] Totally. Yes. On that note. Kate, thank you for joining us for this very hot, hot take.

[00:58:26] Thank you. And in more ways than one. If we've defined redefined the various types of boys.

[00:58:34] All right. Well, thanks, Kate, for taking all this time. We appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Thanks.

[00:58:59] I was on on your pack cars hot and bothered me back when I don't even know when, because time is not a real.

[00:59:06] There could be five years or three days. Could be, right. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:59:13] So we talked a lot about the Bernie Sanders campaign, which it at that time, I think, just kind of come to an end. And since then, I've done some research on the Bernie Sanders campaign and Bernie Sanders is a person. So I thought I'd just do like a quick lightning round on things you may not know about Bernie Sanders. Well, we'll see how you do. I probably won't know a lot of them, but that's great content. OK.

[00:59:37] All right. One, why does Bernie Sanders hate icebergs?

[00:59:45] I can only assume he is a fan of the movie Titanic. No, it's because only the top one percent can stay above water.

[00:59:57] A deep cut, deep kind of a fact. Yeah. What's the Bernie Sanders favorite modern technology?

[01:00:12] I mean, I don't even know where to start.

[01:00:18] And electric car.

[01:00:22] Socialist media. Right. I can tell I'm killing right now. Yeah. Why did Bernie Sanders chicken restaurant throw out so much food? Whatever the answer is, it'll probably get wrong. I think when we get up, you know, I want to try.

[01:00:41] Are you giving. No. Why did they throw out so much food?

[01:00:47] Because there are too many vegetarians in Burlington.

[01:00:53] No, he only sold left wing.

[01:00:59] All right. Why doesn't Bernie Sanders like hand sanitizer?

[01:01:05] Uh, yeah.

[01:01:12] Is produced by the fossil fuel industry.

[01:01:17] That would be better, but no, because it protects the zero point zero one percent.

[01:01:26] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

[01:01:29] OK. There's only three more. What's Bernie Sanders favorite insurance company? You can do this one. I promise. State Farm Progressive. That's part of the day.

[01:01:45] My brain is just not not wired for us. Yeah. It's the caffeine it's doing.

[01:01:50] I mean, I'm enjoying a view which is like trying to guess the actual answers to the dead.

[01:01:55] No, no, no. If I'm at that point, I'm past that point.

[01:02:00] OK. Was there a good turnout at the Bernie Sanders rally?

[01:02:06] Yes, there were a lot of people, but I wouldn't say it was super PACs. Yeah, lower. All right, last one. Why is Bernie Sanders always mad at his phone at the end of the day?

[01:02:26] Would you like a clue? Yes. The answer is new. It's always it's always the one percent. Yes. It's a one percenter.

[01:02:38] I got one. I got it. He got it. I feel so proud of my.

[01:03:19] All right. I feel like that was a really great conversation.

[01:03:22] I learned a lot about degrowth and eco modernism and all the different ways that you can cover climate and politics and race and you don't need to separate them. And if you do separate them, you're probably not covering any of them completely.

[01:03:35] Yeah, yeah, totally. What I like about Kate is that she's never like she kind of started out in activist organizations and she never really felt the need to even pretend to be, quote unquote, objective as a journalist. But actually, I think she does incredibly meticulous reporting. So like, it's it's a good combination of things. And also, it was fun to talk about Sad Boys, Mad Boys, GLADD, Boys and Bad.

[01:04:06] We're going to develop that bad boy figure.

[01:04:08] So thank you so much, Kate, for joining us on the show today. You can and should follow her on Twitter. She's at Kate Aronoff. Aronoff is a r. O in l. F. F. And keep up with her reporting over at the New Republic.

[01:04:22] Also, you can follow us on Twitter at Real Hot Take. And I'm at Amy Westervelt and Mary is at Mary Haigler.

[01:04:29] And if you haven't heard, we have a newsletter and it is fabulous. We realize that the climate story is too big and overarching to really cover it all with just the podcasts in any sort of depth. So we launched this baby back in May and we've been having a lot of fun with it. Yeah.

[01:04:44] That's right. We're really enjoying just sort of, you know, going off well.

[01:04:49] We feel like it adding new reporting stuff when we find it. It's great. And we are able to do a little bonus episodes on there as well. If you subscribe, you not only get access to original features by Merian myself, you also get bonus content for both the podcast and even like in between little bonus episodes.

[01:05:09] Right. And there's like a roundup of all the best climate coverage for the week. Yeah, we're very proud of it. You can't tell. We have a premium version with all the fun features for as little as seven dollars a month or 80 dollars a year.

[01:05:22] Or if you really love us, you can sign up for our founding membership at two hundred and ten dollars. That's right. And with the founding membership, you also get a free t shirt.

[01:05:33] Yes, yes. Yes.

[01:05:35] It's not free if you're paying too close. Anyway, we undersells really special to you.

[01:05:41] We understand that not everyone can do that right now. Totally get it. Everyone's financial situation is different at the moment and we firmly believe that we should not keep this content behind a paywall. So we produce a free newsletter, too, that has the roundup of weekly coverage, at least one free feature from us and teasers for all of the other stuff in the premium newsletter. Plus, we are committed to keeping this podcast free for everyone. So still a lot of content for play. Yeah.

[01:06:10] Exactly right. And every week we do at least one giveaway for premium memberships on Twitter, so make sure that you stay tuned for those. Maybe like turn on notifications. That's the thing. Yeah.

[01:06:20] Yeah, I know. Because they go fast. Still, it's great. Yeah, they do. Also, as I mentioned before, t shirts, we do have merchandise now.

[01:06:28] We've got hats and shirts and mugs and we're getting even more things all the time. Thanks to everyone who stayed patient with us while we shipped our first order. We had some U.P.S. Purgatory drama, but they're out now and we're loving seeing all the pictures that you guys are sending. So keep those up.

[01:06:44] Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait to get my shares because as much as I love seeing everybody with the shirt, fine. Like, I've got major foma over here and it just seems like U.P.S. hates me specifically.

[01:06:55] That's like what did I do, you know, like, how can I make it up to you? Like, I'm sorry, man. I don't know what it was, but Saad's true.

[01:07:03] It's starting to feel really personal. It was a weekly coming to me to I don't trust you.

[01:07:10] You know, I suppose we're not, you know, supplying masks to hospitals, so I can't complain.

[01:07:16] Exactly. Exactly. And like, you know, the U.P.S. has been through a lot lately. So we appreciate you.

[01:07:23] Yes. Yes. All right. That's it for this episode. Our next guest is going to be Brian. He's the managing editor over author. If you have questions for him about climate narrative's or the media landscape or something he's written or published. Please send them to hot takes at Critical Frequency dot org. That's hotstix plural at Critical Frequency that way.

[01:07:42] That's right. And you can also send us your suggestions for other guests or other show theme suggestions there as well.

[01:07:49] All right. We'll talk to you all again soon. What is the best sign off the other one I was considering was keep fucking that chicken.

[01:08:55] Do you remember that?

[01:09:00] Oh, I didn't know anybody else would get it. Oh, man.

[01:09:08] That would have been a whole layer. I came here like, hey, hotcakes, keep fucking that chicken. Oh, good.

[01:09:20] This is better than fucking Carl.

[01:09:25] I was having visions. Get it so good. Get it.

[01:09:30] All right.