S2, Ep11 | Political Instability =/ Planetary Instability, with Justin Worland

Mary [00:00:09] Hey, Hotcakes. Welcome to Hot Take, the podcast where we examine the climate crisis and all the ways we're talking and not talking about it. I'm Mary Annaise Heglar.

Amy [00:00:20] And I'm Amy Westervelt. Today, we're talking about something that's on everyone's mind. Political instability. And specifically how climate change intersects with and intensifies it.

Mary [00:00:33] Exactly. And we're joined this episode by Justin Worland, who is the lead environmental and climate reporter at Time magazine, which is just like a magazine that my mother loves and adores as whereas if she reads Time magazine, she then reads everything in the world and knows everything that is happening ever. So we're very lucky to have him on this show.

Amy [00:00:58] Yeah. Yeah, he's great. I think his reporting in general is really, really great. And he talked quite a bit about how these issues of political instability and climate intersect. And he explained for us what an Amy Cony Berrett confirmation might mean for climate policy.

[00:01:18] Yeah. And we dug in to a little bit more about how climate change increases and exacerbates police violence because, of course, it does exacerbates all violence, who is not more irritable when they're hot and bothered. So, yeah, it was a really great to dig into that with them. If you want the links to the articles we talk about in here, you should make sure that you subscribe to our newsletter. And if you want some extra amazing premium content, you can subscribe for just seven dollars a month.

[00:01:48] That's right. And we also have a free version. If seven dollars a month feels like a stretch right now, we get it. There will be more details in the show, notes on how to find that and special request.

[00:01:59] Please go leave us. A review in Apple podcasts. If you have not already done that or wherever you are listening, but the Apple podcast, once I don't know, seem to actually matter more. It's how people find us.

[00:02:10] Yeah, it's really easy. Just like go in there, give us a little five stars. We'll just like, say you love it. You don't really need to think about it that much. If you have a negative review, we have another system for that.

[00:02:22] And we'll talk about that at the end of the show.

[00:02:24] Yeah, it's time to talk about climate.

[00:02:36] Just a whirlwind welcome to the show. We're so happy to have you there. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:41] So first things first. How did you get into journalism and specifically into climate journalism?

[00:02:48] Yeah, so I got into journalism really like in college, I kind of fell in love with the school paper and was just like that. I always joke like the school paper was my second major or like my major. Did you go to school?

[00:03:03] I went to Harvard or rootworms in the school paper. Yeah. I mean, so I did that and I and then I so I knew I wanted to go into journalism, did some internships wound up at time doing my breaking news that was very sort of, you know, entry level stuff and abouts five years ago, a little more than five years ago. This opportunity came to do the climate beat. And [00:03:31]honestly, I was like, what's this all about? I don't really know. And sort of after, like, a little trial period realize like, wow, this is actually the most important issue and it's not being covered enough or or in some ways, you know. Right. [15.8s] And so I sort of felt like that. And that's.

[00:03:50] Yeah. I mean, it's been, I guess, five and a half years.

[00:03:53] Do you remember the moment where you were like, oh, wait a minute, there's a line here.

[00:03:57] I mean, I think it definitely was like an evolution, but like I don't know if there was like a like one exact moment. But I mean, I think it was just sort of.

[00:04:08] Delving off into rabbit holes and seeing the implications of climate change for these areas that certainly weren't what I had been accustomed to reading about. So I don't I mean, I don't know if there's like that's like there's like a definitive moment.

[00:04:25] Yeah, you mentioned there sometimes not being covered, right?

[00:04:28] If you could change one thing or if it's a, you know, two or three, that's fine, too, about the way that we talk about climate in the mainstream discourse or in the media. What would it be?

[00:04:38] Yeah, I mean, that's right. You're you're right to say like two or three or.

[00:04:42] Yeah, I like to. Yeah. R11 yeah. We have time.

[00:04:48] I mean I think I think so. There's like a few things. One is I'm increasingly impressed that I think people who cover climate and know it well like do a good job at doing that.

[00:05:00] I think the challenge of course, comes when you look at the presidential debates or any time when somebody who doesn't really know their stuff like starts or needs to talk about climate. And so I you know, you get you get the bigger challenges. I think the one, if I had to pick one, is the framing of climate change, addressing climate change as like, what do you have to give up?

[00:05:25] And I think this is like something that I see even from, you know, mainstream journalists who should know better, who will frame a question about, you know, well, how much will it cost? How much should we be willing to sacrifice at it? I mean, you like I think everybody who listens to this podcast knows what why that's like trouble on, like, so many levels. But it's still, I think, what a lot of people think and I think even like I think even some people who mean, well, Democratic politicians sometimes will slip into a sort of like, you know, we don't we don't want to give anything up, sort of like language about it.

[00:06:06] Yeah, that's my that's my one thing.

[00:06:08] Yeah. Like how they don't want to give up fracking.

[00:06:12] And fracking is a prime example where it's it's you know, I understand the sort of messaging like you don't want to talk about losing fracking jobs, OK, but like maybe talk about the opportunities that are created. You know, if we do move away from from fracking. Right. Like don't frame it about giving up fracking talking and talk about like, yeah, we'll have cleaner water. Right. There's opportunities for new industries in new jobs and. Right. Yeah. So I think that's that is a good example.

[00:06:39] My most recent rant on fracking has been like I just don't understand why politicians in particular, when they're asked about that, don't come back immediately and say fracking companies are laying people off right and left. What are you talking about? They're all going bankrupt. They've never made money.

[00:06:55] The thing I always want to know, like, why don't they come back with this? Like, we're talking about saving lives here. Yes.

[00:07:01] Seems like this isn't about what's to be gained in the GDP. We're talking about like human beings, like so like, well, how hard would it be to come back with like, this is killing people and it's going to kill a lot more people. Anyway, I could go on that rant forever.

[00:07:20] No, I mean, I think that's that's that's definitely right. But I also think, like, I wrote a story in the spring about cost benefit analysis, which is like a a thing that, you know, why do we conduct the cost of an analysis when it comes to saving lives? Like, that's a whole different thing. Like, even if you accept the premise that it's all about GDP, like we should still be doing a lot of the things that, you know, that that we're talking about purely on the basis of saving lives. No, I think it's important to make that argument on all levels.

[00:07:53] Exactly. Exactly.

[00:07:54] You know, what's crazy about that, too, is that there was a story I mean, like way back 20, 30 years. It was like a big scandal when GM was caught basically making this calculation in like a spreadsheet.

[00:08:07] They were calculating how much money they would lose from a massive recall for like a safety flaw that they knew existed versus how many people would die. And they made the call that it would cost them less to pay out insurance claims from people dying than to do this recall.

[00:08:27] What the fuck? That's kind of what we're doing at a massive scale. Yeah.

[00:08:32] See, this is what I love about doing a podcast with Amy. She does, like, knows that shit.

[00:08:42] A good example, though. Yeah.

[00:08:45] Yeah. One of the things we've learned the most from doing take for about a year now is how quickly the climate story has changed in the past, like four years, really the past two years. So are there any interesting emerging things that you've noticed in the ways that we talk about climate change?

[00:09:01] Yeah, I mean, I think one like just this. I mean, when I took on this be like five and a half years ago is not that long ago. I mean, just the sort of the volume and attention like level of concern that I think it's gotten is, I think the first thing.

[00:09:17] But I think the other thing is just, you know, talking about it as intersexual issue. And I. That like in really every respect. I think there's a growing recognition that climate change, climate policy, climate activism is not just about like, you know, emissions and even like emissions and sea level rise, that it's actually about literally everything. I think that that's something that, you know, most people would not have understood five years ago. And I think I don't I mean, I don't know that most people understand it now, but but I think that people who pay attention definitely are are increasingly aware of that. So I think that's a huge thing. There's so many reasons from that for that. I obviously like the activism with green diesel etc as a big part of it. But I think there are a lot of a lot of reasons.

[00:10:10] OK. So, Justin, what are you reading these days and what. Is there anything that you read on a regular basis to kind of stay up on these things or that, you know, a particular writer that you like on climate?

[00:10:20] Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I try so I think a few things I would say I have I don't know. I subscribe to, like, I don't know, 20 newsletters. It's your favorite. And there's a right answer. Yeah, of course. Of course. Yours is my my favorite. I should probably take a step back and say this is a good time to plug my own newsletter.

[00:10:43] Which is called one point five, and you can Google it and find at one point five times. So please subscribe.

[00:10:49] But I. But really, I don't know. I think one thing that I've focused my reading on or tried to focus my reading on is, you know, as I said, thinking about climate as an intersexual issue. And so, like, trying not and there are a lot of great people writing about climate, but trying not to just read about climate, but actually just trying to like read the news.

[00:11:10] You know, anything and everything and sort of trying to find those connections that maybe people aren't thinking about because, you know, climate.

[00:11:19] I mean, for a long time, like the climate reporter, like, you know, had a lot of work to do, writing about climate reports and all the different climate things that are happening. And like so one thing that I really. Yeah.

[00:11:31] Like I try to do is like, OK, let me just read the newspaper or me read the whole newspapers and see where the climate story is that people are totally missing that. Yeah.

[00:11:41] Yeah. So that's like a very broad answer. But like, I don't know, I think it's important.

[00:11:59] No reporter at Time magazine, which is like very, very, very dear in my family, is the only magazine that my mother subscribes to.

[00:12:09] So I have a lot of questions for you. OK. One wet dog always knows the time.

[00:12:16] Always.

[00:12:17] I hope you can ask Amy for help. OK. Amy, can I get a hint?

[00:12:24] Oh God.

[00:12:27] I feel like it's like it's funny that you can ask me for help too, because I'm also very bad at these.

[00:12:33] Yeah. No, it's not really reptiles. Not actually. Not politically. Which is why I have no idea. Let let a watch dog. Oh God. Come on. We share that.

[00:12:48] That was an easy one. You started using, didn't you?

[00:12:53] Well, I mean, there's plenty to go. Don't worry.

[00:12:55] They're all about time. So if you thought from that setup, I was actually going to ask you about Time magazine. Think a fucking again. Why did the man put a clock under his desk? Well, the whole.

[00:13:15] See, our. Went ahead. Yeah. What do you do on your day? You work, right?

[00:13:29] Clock under it to work overtime. There you go.

[00:13:40] OK. So there's hope for you. Death is what that says.

[00:14:05] OK. So, Justin, the main reason we want to have you on is to talk about climate change and political destabilization, which is something you've written a bit about in time. So we have an excerpt from an article you wrote called How Climate Change Beats Political Instability.

[00:14:22] And we'd love it if you could read us that quick. Two paragraphs.

[00:14:26] Well, OK. Change play in our current political instability.

[00:14:32] It's a controversial question. For years, many politicians and commentators shuddered when scientists or climate activists discussed climate change in relation to individual storms or wildfires, accusing them of politicizing disaster. And in those cases, the link to climate change was relatively straightforward. The evidence connecting climate change and political stability has been less obvious, but is becoming increasingly impossible to ignore. Warmer temperatures and extreme weather exacerbate social stress, worsening economic outcomes. These, in turn, affect political behavior. A landmark 2013 paper in the journal Science found that the change in temperature of one standard deviation was associated with a two point three percent increase in interpersonal conflict flight rates and a thirteen point two percent increase in the rate of intergroup conflict. By 2050, temperatures are expected to rise by two standard deviations in most places across the globe and by as much as four standard deviations in some places. And these tumultuous times, both politically and climatically. There are several key factors of human behavior to consider. Research has shown that warm temperatures increase the odds of violent interpersonal interactions. So do you see spikes in violent crime? And police are more likely to use extreme force and use force and extreme heat. Studies have also found that people dealing with extreme heat are more likely to distrust outsiders. And research has shown that challenging weather shapes political decisions. And this is a quote here when people are uncomfortable, weather explains some of that, says Cohen. Alexander Cohen. And to continue, the quote can explain how There, respond to public opinion surveys.

[00:16:16] We know that it affects how they vote or if they vote at all.

[00:16:20] The thing I found most interesting about it was kind of the first thing you said was that it's a controversial question. And [00:16:26]I've got understand that it is a controversial question to a lot of people. [3.9s]

[00:16:31] [00:16:31]But I just don't understand how you like if you take the whole world and make it unstable. Of course, every system that operates on top of it is going to become unstable, too, right. [10.9s]

[00:16:42] [00:16:42]It's like trying to write in your journal while the subway's moving like you can. You're not going to be able to do it. [6.5s]

[00:16:49] [00:16:49]I know it's super weird, too, because, like, nobody questions. [2.7s]

[00:16:53] [00:16:53]You know, the fact that daily life gets harder when there's an extreme weather event, for example, like that's uncontroversial. So I don't understand why the idea that, you know, more and more extreme heat or hurricanes or fires or storms or whatever is going to make things less stable is is not patently obvious. [19.5s]

[00:17:14] [00:17:14]I just. [0.1s]

[00:17:15] [00:17:15]Yeah, right. Like, of course it is. [1.6s] So just how did you come to write this piece?

[00:17:23] Yeah. I mean, I was just so this was for this originally was in my newsletter that I mentioned earlier where I tried to just write about the news of the week and find the climate hook. And this was, you know, I mean, there was one of the many weeks and the last several months where everything just felt totally insane.

[00:17:43] And so, you know, I just I was familiar with the literature on climate and political instability. And I just thought, you know, it's a good time to sort of just go through it and review it for any readers who aren't. And, you know, it's like one of those things, too, where you can sort of pick apart, like a lot of the literature is on the developing world places outside of the US. But I just felt also, you know, given the storms that were in the Gulf, given the wildfires, given some of the flooding in the Midwest, I just felt like, you know what?

[00:18:21] Maybe this is like a time when people will actually really get it. Like, you know, to the point earlier, like, why is this controversial? I mean, I don't know. Obviously, I think it shouldn't be controversial, but I feel like a lot of it is that people just like they don't they can't. It seems too abstract. And so I just felt like, well, this is a moment where you can literally see it, like you can literally see the flooding and the wildfires, et cetera. So it just seemed like the right moment to sort of elevate that literature.

[00:18:53] You know, I think it might be because people are a scarce people. It is terrifying. Right.

[00:18:58] And so people are like, it can't possibly be that bad like that cognitive dissonance kind of comes back. I don't know if y'all used to have this experience. No idea. Like before 2016, whenever I would try to talk about climate to people, like they would really shut down and get really defensive and be like, it can't possibly be that bad. If it is that bad, somebody is working on a solution. Nobody would ever let it get that bad. We get really mad at me about it. And I feel like that still happens. Now, when you try to make the social consequences of it clear to people.

[00:19:35] Yeah. That yeah, that's yeah. I mean, like in a way it threatens. I mean, just understanding that threatens the way that we understand and engage in our world. So that's I, I mean I can get why that's a reaction even though that's not a smart reaction. Yeah.

[00:19:53] In the same article you talk about how increased heat affects police violence. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

[00:20:00] Yeah, well, it's so I mean, I refer to a study in this in this piece. But I mean, basically, you know, I mean, you can take police out of it for a minute and you think about it when it's really hot and you're outside and you're kind of agitated like, you know, you or me or any like person is more likely to make a rash decision. And the same goes for police. And, you know, there's literature on this. It shows that now police are more likely to pull that trigger when they feel agitated and extreme heat. It's interesting, too. I just as a sort of aside, this isn't in the piece. But I want to this focus group and this year but before cohabited in February, sort of a mix of black voters in Philadelphia.

[00:20:51] And it was like they sort of were talked through like, you know, what different thought, different parts of the climate. And most people walked in without really having much thought about climate change.

[00:21:04] But it was so interesting to see, like, people come to the conclusion, like on their own that like, what do you anticipate if there are more hot days and there are tougher times with police, tougher times and streets. It is like a thing that people intuitively get, even though. And of course, there's this robust literature to support that. So from what I just I was it's amazing how, like, people experience this already.

[00:21:30] Right. Like, if you look up the temperatures of any major day of political upheaval, it was always hot as balls like Bastille Day was super fucking high like it was. Same thing with the L.A. riots. Like you'll notice that the L.A. riots and when I say L.A. riots, I am thinking of like I'm thinking of the Rodney King riots of the 90s. But they only happen in really hot places because that happened. And I think in late March or something like it wasn't a typically hot it wasn't the summer. And so it happened in places like Atlanta and L.A. and then like the the unrest that we saw this summer when people spilled out into the streets. It was really fucking hot this summer. The Watts riots in the 60s, all of the all of those things happened when it was extremely hot outside because people are more irritable and not even just like the people spilling out into the streets. But the police will are way more likely to show their ass. Right. I also think of Katrina where they just like bounce or if they stay, they got it.

[00:22:34] Got real biblical. Yeah. I also wanted to talk about how I think people they think of climate change as being like a quick thing often.

[00:22:41] Maybe people are getting away from that belief. But I think a lot of people still think it is. And it's like you'll wake up one day and like this is climate change and it's actually not like that at all. And so I wanted to read from a piece from two thousand eighteen that was in the Atlantic called Trump Climate Change and the Future of U.S. Democracy by Van Newkirk.

[00:23:00] The most immediate consequence of climate change won't be an abrupt entry into an alien Anthropocene Hill.

[00:23:06] It's more likely to be a slow descent. Racial wealth gaps will increase. Racial health disparities will be exacerbated. Sprawling metropolises and rural hamlets alike will face steeper and steeper budgetary constraints and could be forced to rely heavily on the fees and fines to keep the lights on, a move that some cash strapped local governments have already made and one that disproportionately affects poor or minority residents. Housing markets will continue to realign in favor of displacement and the creation of a migrant renter class. Marginalized neighborhoods will continue to shoulder a majority of the environmental burden. Trust in government will continue to decline as it proves unable to help people plan for or respond to climate effects. Elections will be disrupted by disasters. Fewer and fewer people will have real attachments to local civic life. And even the concept of local or national shared destiny will suffer as the haves are shielded from consequences and disasters can and will rapidly push. Each of these weaknesses to crisis points, even as the rolling disaster of environmental change makes crises incrementally more likely every day.

[00:24:16] This is something I think about a lot because they feel like this is true everywhere.

[00:24:20] But it's I think it has the potential to be slightly more catastrophic in the US because it's happening on top of a society that's never really been good at community.

[00:24:33] Oh, yeah.

[00:24:34] I also think about this this year in particular, because people are being pushed out of their homes by fire, them by floods. And how are they going to vote? Where are they going to vote?

[00:24:44] Yeah.

[00:24:45] Well, and then the fact that they're being pushed out of their homes during a pandemic, too, it's just like, yeah, it's really remarkable how, like, as you said, this is like this describes our world now.

[00:24:59] And this was like a prescient article written like two years ago. It's just it's it's terrifying.

[00:25:07] And I think it's like it's terrifying when we, like people in the know have known and expected what we see now. And it's just happening so much faster.

[00:25:17] And it's I keep thinking that, too. It's happening so much faster than than even what like. Yeah. What I thought or most people, you know, I think I don't know. I don't know why I thought it like we had another 10, 20 years before it got like this, but yeah.

[00:25:36] Yeah. Now same thing. I kind of think about that too when I hear like, you know, there's this new segment of climate denial that's like, yeah, climate change is real, but it's not that bad. And it's just like, what level of denial?

[00:25:51] I think I don't understand how you could look at it like, oh ho, have records of their own fire and be like, yes.

[00:25:59] I once went to a like Heartland Institute like, you know, climate deniers.

[00:26:04] Oh, my poor baby. The conference. Yeah. I mean, the friends that the area. So you beat me up. Yeah.

[00:26:11] Yeah. Well, what strikes me about it is like the way in which nobody believes the same thing. The only coherent belief is we shouldn't do it. Right. And I think that's like people are grappling, you know, who wants this one to hold on to that belief? I feel like they're just grappling, grappling for any sort of justification like, oh, it's not that bad or. Oh, like there will be some advancement. I mean, that's like that means the new climate denial, of course. But it's just it's interesting to see all of that, like grasping for any sort of justification. And that's the only thing that even possibly I mean, it doesn't make sense, but they could plausibly make sense. Right. They yet deny it anymore.

[00:26:55] OK. So the Heartland Institute puts on like a climate denial conference every year. And it's I think Briancon talked about going to this thing, too. I'm never going to go, but I will tell you what I think.

[00:27:07] It looks like it looks really fucking white and the food is unseasoned and, well, everybody's wearing a red tie.

[00:27:21] There was a very definitely right on the white part. But what is it like? It's like most conferences, like, I don't know, journalists, you can pay somehow to get food. But they had a very strict like at least the year I went. And I only want Whited don't think I can go back. But there was like a very strict. Like Penn, where journalists were like put in the pen and so like but we didn't. I don't know what the food was like at all.

[00:27:48] So how did they react to you as a black person?

[00:27:53] Yeah. So this is a this is like a whole can of worms, actually, but I don't think that I don't I don't think badly.

[00:28:01] And there's this interesting experience I've had, which is that God and I don't know, I don't want to like, say anything in particular about that, this group of people versus another group of people. But I often find that when I'm in reporting in circles like that, there's almost a desire to, like, say, hey, we don't have any prejudice against you.

[00:28:26] Like, hey, like it's like it's like a desire to, like, prove that that that that, you know, they don't.

[00:28:34] They're not.

[00:28:36] You know, against me or something. And so, I mean, yeah, racist. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Not racist and. I don't know, it's an interesting reporting experience because I don't know. I've been to lots of places where I've been a little nervous and find that especially people who know they're being reported on are very, very friendly. So anyway, that, I guess, is all which is to say it's like they were very friendly to me generally. But I mean, I wouldn't read too much into that stuff. Yeah.

[00:29:22] Another thing to talk about is the rise of climate authoritarianism. So this is basically like strong men emerge and rule countries when, you know, everything's kind of falling apart. And when the earth underneath you is basically on fire and the waters are rising, like, it's honestly not a better case for chaos than that.

[00:29:48] I think of last year when Ashton Allio was on fire. Remembering Scott Morrison, basically trying to comfort a child, saying, like, I know you don't remember, but it's always been like this. There's always been fires like this.

[00:30:04] And the thing is that, like, people want to believe that that is a comforting thought.

[00:30:10] As crazy as it sounds to believe that, like it's always been on fire. Fire is normal. That is that's actually a comforting thought as opposed to this is unprecedented and absurd. And I don't know what to do.

[00:30:23] And so I could see this rise of populism that we're seeing all around the world and authoritarianism all over the world turn into a rewriting of history. Right. Like, will children in the future know that the climate used to be stable?

[00:30:38] This is what keeps me up at night is like, what if we enter this world where that sort of messaging just wins out?

[00:30:47] And it's I mean, it is what it is. It's messaging. But like that messaging wins out over the science. And you just you know, people just act as if all of this is normal.

[00:30:58] I mean, I don't think that's going to happen, but it is terrifying to me, going back to what we were talking about, like this stuff happening a lot faster than you thought it would.

[00:31:08] I know in the research for the show came across a piece from 2016 by Robinson mayor in the Atlantic called Donald Trump is the first demagog of the Anthropocene. And Amy, I'm going to let you do the honors. OK.

[00:31:24] Spend enough time with some of the worst case climate scenarios and you may start to assume, as I did, that a major demagog would contest the presidency in the next century. I'm scared already.

[00:31:36] It's too it's too real. It's too real.

[00:31:39] OK.

[00:31:40] I figured that the catastrophic consequences of planetary warming would all but ensure the necessary conditions for such a leader. And I imagined their support coming from a movement motivated by ethno nationalism, economic stagnation and hatred of immigrants and refugees. I pictured, in other words, something not so far from Trump 2016. I just assumed it wouldn't pop up until 2040. Trump is in essence, a double case. A preview of what's to come and a way to practice dealing with it. He represents a test that the leaders of a major American political party are failing and that the electorate may only narrowly pass. He is showing us how ill prepared the United States is for post climate demagogery and he gives us an opportunity to improve our societal immune response.

[00:32:33] How might we do that? His rise also suggests a number of defense mechanisms.

[00:32:38] Obviously, the first is that climate change must be mitigated with all deliberate speed. But he also suggests certain cultural mechanisms. Some Americans may favor more restrictive immigration policies, but in order to withstand against future waves of mass migration and humanely deal with the victims of climate change, racist fears, racist fears must be unhooked from immigration restriction ism.

[00:33:04] In other words, as a matter of survival against future authoritarians, white supremacy must be rejected and defeated.

[00:33:13] Wow. This piece was really prescient. Way to go, Rob.

[00:33:17] This is late October 2016, and I'm over here sharing the glory here, which I guarantee most of our listeners won't know with the glory.

[00:33:25] Serious, but Justin does. Thank you.

[00:33:29] Shaw explain it should explain what that is. OK.

[00:33:32] So in the movie Glory, which is about black black soldiers in the Civil War, there's a scene where one of the one of the soldiers is whipped and flogged and he shoots one single tier. It was Denzel Washington who played that part. And so anyway, that's the glory here.

[00:33:49] I was just going to say, I mean, I. I feel like I probably read this piece at the time, but Whited, I also stumbled upon it again as I was writing, you know, the piece that we led with. And it's like he was just so on the money. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:05] He had not won the election yet, but had won the primary. Right. Like, remember all that. I'll eat my hat if he wins the nomination and then all of those sorts of things. And somehow those same people who said that dumb shit have platforms today is weird.

[00:34:22] But yeah, reading this, I kind of like I got pretty emotional because it's like what to do.

[00:34:29] This is still when everybody thought he wouldn't win. And when we thought, like, OK, he's going to lose in November and then we can reassess and redo some stuff and it just feels so.

[00:34:40] That again, reminds me of the people who are saying now, like, oh, he won't contest the election.

[00:34:48] Like he literally just said he would, trying to trying to be careful how I say this and, you know, my, like, nonpartisan way. But like, there's a chance, like if he loses, you know, there's a rebuild that that has to happen. And we'll also have been exposed to stand these things in a way that I don't think we are going to understand.

[00:35:15] I agree. Way I agree. I think of it like that.

[00:35:18] It's really shown a lot of the the weaknesses in the system. And also, like all of the dirty underbelly that's been there all along, you know, within that met a certain number of people were shielded from.

[00:35:32] I think it's also it speaks a lot to like we talk about or we've talked on the show a lot about, a little bit about the phenomenon of climate vision, where you see natural disasters before they've happened. And what Robert's talking about here is seeing political disasters before they happen, because I think all of us who are in this work kind of seen kind of thought about like what will this do to political conditions? And like what he's describing here. I relate it to so hard because he's like I just assumed it wouldn't happen until 2040, just like we were saying earlier about I just didn't think the wildfires would take off like this till 2015.

[00:36:10] I think the scientists are kind of saying that, too. I didn't think we'd see a giga fire quite this early. I didn't know we were going to have that word.

[00:36:17] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just yeah. It's just terrifying to think that we'll be looking back. I mean, I don't I don't even want to say it, but look back at 20, 20 and think, oh, no. That was adorable. Those things were adorable.

[00:36:30] Well, that's how I look at 2016. I look back. It's what you think. Feel like I didn't know how good I had it.

[00:36:37] I'm kind of curious to see, you know, what the eventual outcome of the Australian brushfire season will be, because every time anything comes up about, you know, linking extreme weather with political action, there's always people that are like, well, look at Australia. Oh.

[00:36:56] But actually, also, there was that paper recently that was Daniel Cohen came out with it, showed that actually there's very little link between extreme weather and political action that like political action, surprise, surprise comes from like decades worth of organizing and not pretty much nothing.

[00:37:16] I don't know, because, like, I'm thinking about what were you saying earlier about like every major political protest spilled out into the streets in terms of riots has been it happened when it was hot as balls.

[00:37:27] That's true. But most of those protests didn't happen like in a flashpoint. There were it's not like all these people were not ever, ever organizing before.

[00:37:36] America has been fucking with black people since we got here. So, you know, yeah.

[00:37:40] It's like, you know. Well, and also, like a lot of a lot of the big protest moments were organized.

[00:37:47] You know, it's not like yes, there was maybe some, like, event that sparked people to, you know, get out in the streets.

[00:37:55] But it's not like they they were totally disparate people with no previous connection to shuffler, you know?

[00:38:02] I mean, like that's why the rise of authoritarianism is so incredibly disturbing, because you need those, like, social movements to push for change.

[00:38:13] And authoritarians are like, well, you know, let's put those people in jail. Yeah. Right. Exactly. There in the Tallgrass.

[00:38:20] I haven't seen this this Daniel Carlin paper, but I, [00:38:23]I feel like a lot of the the research, the literature is is like often about, you know, sort of like, you know, big weather events like did did Hurricane Katrina move the needle. Right. Right. Sandy, I feel like there's something about like, you know, I live in Washington, D.C. There, is just like this sort of rise and like flash floods that have just been happening. And they're subtle, right? Like, they're not national news stories and they're not. Something they were going to do, like an in depth study to see if that moved the needle, but I feel like it's just like a little more abstract, a little more in the background, the way in which we're all sort of feeling these sort of extreme weather effects that that maybe is influencing our understanding or like in a way that maybe is a little less a little more difficult to study. [52.9s]

[00:39:17] Yeah, I would say I think that seems right, because it does seem like. OK, sure.

[00:39:23] You know, maybe it doesn't result in the immediate passing of new legislation, but like, surely that's got to build up.

[00:39:32] Yeah.

[00:39:33] There's another, like, really quick thing I wanted to touch on is another piece that came out in 2013 called This May be the Most Overlooked Threat of Climate Change by Samuel Miller McDonnel. Missouri, very quickly, one paragraph. So he starts talking about how there was this really famous leader of the Maldives.

[00:39:53] Yeah, I remember that. He did the, like, underwater press conference back in the day.

[00:39:59] Right. In the Maldives are these islands. They are most definitely going under water. They had this leader who is very committed to climate action, not just in the mountains, but all over the world. And they. But like as things got realer, he got deposed. If that's the right word or like a coup and thrown out of the country and now is ruled by this authoritarian who's like, we don't need climate action, we need development.

[00:40:24] So anyway, he says, if any lesson can be drawn from the power struggle in the Maldives is that people who feel threatened by an outside force beat foreign invader, a right of foreign invaders, a rising tides often seek reassurance. That reassurance may come in the form of a strong man leader. Someone who tells them all will be, well, the economy will soar, the seas will. The sea walls hold. People must only surrender their elections or their due process until the crisis is resolved. This is perhaps the most overlooked threat of climate change. Major shifts in the global climate could give rise to a new generation of authoritarian rulers, not just in poorer countries or those with weak democratic institutions, but in wealthy industrialized nations too.

[00:41:09] So I think about this as I think about gyroball scenario in Brazil, which was supposed to be on the precipice of like becoming this major global superpower or Modi in India.

[00:41:24] And what's his face in England?

[00:41:28] Bojo Yeah, that dude Boris Chuff, the Kovik survivor Marie Le Pen in in France and Germany. I mean, they're having a far right resurgence to same thing in Canada. It's all over the world. This rise of really nasty authoritarianism and fascism. And I feel like climate is the hidden driver of a lot of this stuff.

[00:41:55] Well, when you think about, like the migrant crisis, the role that, you know, a warmer, you know, well planet, but a warmer region like that contributed.

[00:42:07] I mean, that's it's pretty clear, you know, influence is definitely.

[00:42:19] What do you call a story that one cop tells another story that one hopes for another?

[00:42:27] OK. Time. We're talking about like the type of clocks that have hands over.

[00:42:35] Oh, second hand.

[00:42:42] Yes. There you go. You know, you got one faster than Drew costly. That with our last guest. So you're already like to win the game here?

[00:42:51] Yes. Oh, OK. I'll take a.

[00:43:06] I saw sort of the rise of Evo Morales says this like huge climate leader, right? Like in his early days, we're way back up.

[00:43:16] Tell us about who that is.

[00:43:18] Oh, he's. He was the president of Bolivia up until it was last year.

[00:43:23] It was September of last year. September 2019.

[00:43:26] Yeah. He was the first Digitas president, but he was also someone who, like, you know, he was pushing for climate reparations like 15, 20 years ago.

[00:43:35] You know, he was pushing for adding rights of nature to Bolivia's constitution.

[00:43:40] He was seen as like a really like radical climate leader. And, you know, fast forward fifteen ish years. And he was was ousted by protesters. And there's some amount I still feel like there's some amount of confusion over, you know, the various groups that wanted him out, because it seems to be like a few different a few different groups for a few different reasons.

[00:44:09] So some folks were saying that he was suppressing votes. Some folks were saying that, you know, it was it was his failure to take action on the fires in the Amazon.

[00:44:22] But the net net is that he got he got ousted.

[00:44:27] And now, like, you know, there's there's a certain amount of instability in Bolivia. And then it's it also happens to be the country where, you know, a lot of folks are looking to four for lithium, for electric car batteries and and various other things.

[00:44:45] And there's this sort of I don't know, there's this whole kind of wave of colonialism playing out again. Anyway, long, long winded intro.

[00:44:55] I'm going to read this story from Rachel Ramirez. She wrote about this for Agrest. It's the title is How Indigenous Bolivians Lost Faith in Evo Morales After the Amazon Blaze. In early September, protesters took to the streets of Bolivia demanding that Morales declare a national disaster. Some chants even went as far as calling him a, quote, murderer of nature for not taking immediate action on the fires. Most of the protesters came from indigenous groups living in or near the Amazon, according to one source who didn't want to be named for fear of retaliation for himself and his organization. Many of the protest protesters felt betrayed by their country's first indigenous leader. Soon after the blazes in the Amazon came Bolivia's contested presidential election, in which Morales declared victory after an unexplained pause in vote counting. Protests broke out and Brazil, the United States and the European Union urged Bolivia to hold a runoff election, which Morales agreed to. But then the Bolivian military pushed Morales to resign due to political unrest.

[00:46:08] This is just this. It's depressing because it's like the story of post-colonial Latin America.

[00:46:14] Kind of like over and over again. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:20] Justin, do you remember this?

[00:46:22] Yeah. Well, I mean, I. I do. I think I think that think it's the right way. I think the way that Amy put it is right.

[00:46:29] It's like it's, it's, it's a story that sounds very familiar and it's sad. Yeah.

[00:46:36] It's also it's interesting because what he was replaced by someone who is pretty right wing.

[00:46:44] And so the indigenous folks there are like, oh, wait a minute. This might not go good for us.

[00:46:50] Yeah, you're right. Like, they're mad about him not doing enough about the environment.

[00:46:54] And it's very doubtful that this, like new. Very right wing government is is going to do even as good as Moralez was doing.

[00:47:02] She said extremely derogatory things about indigenous people in Bolivia. So even I can't imagine her saying things like that and being good for the environment. So it kind of seems like one of those cases where political instability, like climate change is is fueling political instability of reforms in the Amazon fire and then that political instability turns around and fuels climate change in the forms of delaying climate action. And it just becomes like this.

[00:47:28] Yeah. And supporting authoritarianism. And that's like this gross circle. Yeah, totally.

[00:47:35] Yeah.

[00:47:36] So that's depressing. Well, also around that around the same time, you know, you had the cop twenty five climate conference getting like bounced around a couple of countries. Oh yeah. In Latin America. And finally kicked over to Spain, which again, man colonial history just right and left.

[00:47:59] Well, it's also an interesting story to follow. So I was like originally supposed be hosted in Brazil, but then Bolson Naro won the election. Both scenarios like Fuck your planet.

[00:48:08] Then it's picked up by Shulie, which I.

[00:48:12] They had these big protests start over transit fares and then turned into like, you know what, we hate everything. And then it was finally hosted by Madrid. And what honestly, what gave it the most attention was that Gretta Thum Barak had traveled here to the Americas to be part. You remember this?

[00:48:33] And then was like, oh, I traveled around the world the wrong way. I gotta get back to Spain.

[00:48:40] Well, so, I mean, you bring up Gretta. It's interesting. So we regret it was about Time's Person of the Year last year. And so we you know, it's this we have this sort of like, opaque process where, you know, she's the person of the year chosen by people, you know. Room I'm not in. But but I flagged them. I was like, hey, if we are at all considering her, she's about to get on a boat and we're not going to have any access to her by the time our deadline. And so I wanted to go to cop twenty five. But then we we we had this whole thing where I mean, I saw her the day before she left to go across back to Spain and we put together this issue, you know what Wild Cop twenty five was going on, which is really not related to this topic at all. So that was sort of my my reflection on COP twenty five, which was doing this first on the air with Gretta. But yeah, I mean she she changed her plans on a dime and went right back across the Atlantic. That was pretty remarkable. And she made it in time for like a photo finish.

[00:49:49] Right. Yeah.

[00:49:52] Unfortunately, like did not save those talks from completely falling apart.

[00:49:56] Oh, my God. I know. I kind of. I really wonder, like.

[00:50:02] I don't know, it just seems so it's it seems like a throwback to a different era to have cop talk still. Yeah, well, I was.

[00:50:11] I think it's like this is something I'm really curious about, like what happens and what is the future of the climate talks. And like especially in a world where we have an agreement and countries are either doing it or they are like, no, it's this interesting. Like, I'm very curious to see how they continue to.

[00:50:46] What did the watch say to the clock? I really love.

[00:50:53] Where does the watch say to you? Fairly good thing.

[00:51:01] I don't know. Now I want to know what. Oh, OK. I can hear it.

[00:51:07] How are you doing? How are you doing? Lowered the stretch. Oh yeah. OK. Right. Yes, we get it. All right.

[00:51:40] I want us to talk about a couple of other instances where this political instability and climate change nexus is showing up because I mean, let's be real, showing up in literally everything but in our two major nationwide.

[00:51:57] Disasters that are just ongoing right now, wildfires and hurricanes, is showing up in the wildfire situation in the form of misinformation and malicious, just like setting up shop and holding checkpoints in places that are like on fire. So they've set up roadblocks and been like, you can't come through this road until we check you.

[00:52:20] And they've got guns. They've got grenades. Like, what are you going to do? Say no. Call the police. Like, there's nothing you can do. You have to comply with it. And there's been all these, like accounts of journalists of color in particular from Oregon being like we had to, like, comply with them. We had to let them take our pictures. The pictures of our car, the pictures of our license plate.

[00:52:45] And they're also claiming that they're responding to these rumors that an TIFA are setting the fires or that Sierra Club is setting the fires.

[00:52:57] And it's just yikes. It's disturbing.

[00:53:02] Yeah. Because in some cases, they are really slowing down evacuations. And then also the thing that's really disturbing to me, this is actually the the rabbit hole.

[00:53:13] I went down the other day because I was looking into the on Facebook. On Facebook.

[00:53:19] Yes, because I was looking into this Facebook group that started like the first week of September and already has like 15000 members. That's all conspiracy theorists who think that see it like Sierra Club people started the fireworks and it would be funny if it wasn't dangerous.

[00:53:40] So it is.

[00:53:41] And it's also just I don't know the thing that always gets me when I spend any amount of time and in places like that is that people are it's not just like, yes, there's dissent, there's disinformation.

[00:53:55] But for it to be effective, it has to be coupled with like this lack of trust of mainstream media.

[00:54:02] And this, you know, kind of brainwashing mostly by Trump and his administration that like you can only listen to what they're saying about things.

[00:54:12] And it's weird. It's like even people that these folks would usually listen to, like the police, the police were saying this is not true. And TFA did not start these fires. Sirico people did not start these fires.

[00:54:26] And all these people in this group were like, I don't know, not sure I buy that, you know, just like I don't that I really don't think we can overstate how dangerous it is to have all of this stuff happening on top of this massive disinformation system.

[00:54:49] Yeah, I guess what I also wondered about is like how these militias were so quickly able to mobilize and insert themselves. And of course, there's going to be you know, first responders are responding to the fires. Right. Of course they are. And so that leaves a vacuum for these militias to set up. And they're ready for that. They've been training for this. They've been waiting for this moment. And we do ourselves a disservice to act like that's not a real thing. So they, like, capitalize on the chaos. They capitalize on the fear and how much people are willing to give up when everything feels uncertain. And yeah, this I actually worry about these militias kind of coopting the language of defund the police and community policing and being like where the community police now?

[00:55:45] Oh, very much. Yeah. Well, also, I mean, they're quite organized. They've logit been organizing since the last civil war. Exactly. Like I'm in a cell. Like I'm wearing a tinfoil hat.

[00:55:54] But are you maybe there are think you know, there are like, you know, organizations and whatever that like send out these bad signals to these groups to you know, like we we got a tip and then I saw a story about it a couple weeks later about this whole operation that was trying to get armed like former Navy SEALs and Green Berets to go quote unquote, guard the polls in Minnesota.

[00:56:23] It's like these.

[00:56:25] I don't know.

[00:56:26] And then again, it's like these people really believe that they're protecting something. I don't know. It's very it's very warped.

[00:56:36] What one thing that I was just struck reading about the reporting, you know, the attempt to kidnap Governor Wittmer.

[00:56:44] Yeah. Michigan. Yeah.

[00:56:46] How much of the reporting was like talking, you know, sort of neighbor reporting?

[00:56:52] And people were saying that the comment was like. Something like, well, yeah, of course, I knew he was in a militia. Everybody's in a militia.

[00:57:02] Well, he was going to do this. And my response was I'd wait, pause.

[00:57:06] Everybody know.

[00:57:14] Yeah. So it's it's I it's like a very this this this sort of intersection is fascinating to me. Yeah.

[00:57:22] He's in a militia. The thing is, like what scares me is I feel like that's kind of true to people in a certain world, like everybody is in a militia because everybody is looking for safety.

[00:57:35] Also, in addition to the wildfire situation, there's also the hurricanes down on the Gulf Coast, mostly this year after hurdle of a lot of them on the Atlantic coast.

[00:57:47] Anyway, I was reading this story about Lafayette, Louisiana, which refused to shelter evacuees from Hurricane Laura because they felt like there were outside agitators coming in to support Black Lives Matter because they had recently been a shooting of an unarmed black man in Lafayette. Well, actually, it was not unarmed. He had a knife, but that still was no reason to shoot him eleven times. And so there have been all of these protests about it and they didn't want to welcome anyone else into their city because they were like, well, these are outside agitators.

[00:58:25] These are not our people. And they were like all of these sort of communications in the wake of the protest being like, don't get involved. These are not our people on both sides. Right.

[00:58:36] And so, yeah, when the hurricane came, they were just like, we're not accepting anybody. They tore all their civil services to, like, shut down.

[00:58:44] And they were like, well, people are going to have to go a little bit further, but that's fine. We have to protect our other people. And it would be irresponsible to welcome them into our city. Here's the thing about Lafayette. Lafayette is one of the biggest cities that you could potentially go to. To be out of harm's way. Lafayette is like one hundred thousand people, which ain't small in Louisiana. And so for them to be like, yeah, we're not taking anybody is like, well, where are they supposed to go?

[00:59:12] Exactly who else has the infrastructure to take them?

[00:59:16] I just I just think about, you know, we were you read we read an excerpt from the story about the mall, Beeb's and I and it's it's just crazy to me the way in which we see what's happening.

[00:59:31] Like the ability to otherwise so quickly. I mean, this is like this is that we've otherwise places like small island nations and other otherwise like people coming from Central America.

[00:59:45] And like just this this really struck me because it's it's it's crazy.

[00:59:49] Like, I guess this is like one of those things that I imagined happening, you know, decades down the road.

[00:59:56] You know, you can see how we we I say we but like how, you know, people, people who might otherwise other Americans who are moving for climate reasons.

[01:00:09] But I mean, just that it's happening right now is it's all right. It's just so scary to me.

[01:00:14] But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:00:19] Because this is exactly what you were talking about in your article about people are more likely to be distrustful of outsiders.

[01:00:26] And this is from like not even outside the state yet.

[01:00:43] What happens when you annoy a clock, it alarms it, right? It it rings.

[01:00:54] What? What's another sound? A clock.

[01:00:57] Tech language kicked off. Well, it gets to go off, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, you got it.

[01:01:05] I think he's officially gotten more than any guest ever. Nothing. You have you totally have got to.

[01:01:20] Well, the last thing we want to talk to you about, Justin, is the Supreme Court nominee.

[01:01:25] The bad Amy. The bad Amy.

[01:01:29] Amy CONI Barrett. There's a lot of bad Amys out there this year. And as a good Amy, I just want to say.

[01:01:34] Yeah, now y'all aren't having a great year.

[01:01:37] Yeah. Yeah. Cut it out. Amy's anyway. So Amy CONI Barrett, the confirmation hearings started today and she showed up with, you know, a bunch of kids. I will never not find it weird. The like politicians are like, way to go having so many kids anyway. So there's been quite a bit of discussion about what her confirmation might mean for client Matt and Justin.

[01:02:10] I know you wrote about this, so we wanted to have you read from from this just a short excerpt here. It's called Trump Supreme Court Pick Could Stop Climate Measures.

[01:02:23] Climate change wasn't included in the original mandate of the EPA, and Congress has never explicitly told the agent to regulate greenhouse gas emissions. But as global warming science grew increasingly alarming, the agency was forced to incorporate reducing greenhouse gas emissions into its mandate, troubled by the federal government's inaction.

[01:02:43] A group of states led by Massachusetts sued the EPA in 2006 to demand the agency to act to reduce emissions. The following year, the Supreme Court ruled in a five four decision known as Massachusetts vs. EPA, that the agency needed to regulate greenhouse gas emissions. If EPA scientists found they endangered public health, the court's decision meant that combating climate change was effectively a responsibility of the executive branch.

[01:03:11] Do you want to explain a little bit about why Amy Kunie parents nomination could unravel Massachusetts versus EPA?

[01:03:21] Well, essentially, you know, Matt, as I say in this this this excerpt. Massachusetts versus EPA was a five four decision with Justice Kennedy in the majority.

[01:03:33] So, you know, right now there seems to be very likely to be a clear.

[01:03:41] Conservative majority or majority?

[01:03:44] That would that could unravel this decision and what Massachusetts versus EPA is, is like. It gives the EPA the authority to regulate climate change. So basically, you know, she could effectively say, no, the EPA doesn't have the authority to to to regulate climate change or could really narrow the ability of the EPA to do that.

[01:04:11] And I mean, there's a few different principles at play. There's, you know, Chevron deference, which gives the agency significant authority to interpret the law. So, you know, in this case, EPA can really say the Clean Air Act gives us a lot of ability to regulate climate change. And that's something that conservatives are traditionally skeptical of. And there's also this sort of new, not new. It's a it's an old principle ban on delegation principle, but hasn't really been applied.

[01:04:45] But it's something that, you know, conservatives subscribe to, which is this idea that Congress can't say no, EPA needs to deal with climate change and EPA can figure it out. Long delegation principle says no, Congress can't actually tell the EPA to do something without really specific instructions. So this is like really wonky. But like some of it is like basically the Supreme Court can say, hey, you can't. The EPA can't use the existing law to regulate climate change. And B, even if Congress tries to enact new laws that tell you to regulate greenhouse gas emissions, they maybe can't do that either.

[01:05:35] So it's like it's a really troubling reality for climate policymakers because like it it's very difficult for Congress to come up with the exact way in which greenhouse gas emissions will be regulated. That's not like that's not what Congress does. So. Right. That was a really rambling way to explain like a wonky thing.

[01:05:55] But it's it's a big she could unravel the whole basis for climate policy.

[01:06:00] Although, you know, I was looking at this thinking because I followed these climate liability cases for so long.

[01:06:07] And the big thing that always comes up with those and the basic argument with those is that, you know, climate change causes damage and it creates costs for counties and cities and states. And therefore, the companies that have acted, too, in a sense, delay action on climate should be responsible for some of those costs. Right. So a lot of these, like the first batch, these cases came twelve, thirteen years ago. They were filed in federal court and they were kicked out of federal court.

[01:06:37] Because, you know, this the Supreme Court basically said the Clean Air Act preempts these.

[01:06:44] Well, if you know, if the federal government is going to say, actually, we're not regulating climate change, then I feel like it doesn't pay enough for the states to do stuff. So I don't know then it makes me I'm like, what will they do?

[01:06:59] Well, yeah. I mean, I feel like we're just we're in this sort of very interesting moment where things could go so many different ways. And I think the fact is liability cases are not necessarily a federal matter like does open up, you know, a lot of potential. It's it's really interesting.

[01:07:18] I thought that the conservative court had actually turned out to be a little bit more progressive on climate than we had thought they were going to be, right.

[01:07:28] It's more that like so far, at least just looking at Kavin on Gorsuch, they are if they have to choose between corporate rights and states rights, they're like bigger advocates of state rights so far than corporate rights. But Amy Codie buried her record, speaks to she just, you know, rules on the sign of corporations pretty consistently. So that would be that would be slightly different.

[01:07:58] And and let's be clear here.

[01:08:00] Like we don't have that many decisions of Gorsuch in and cabinet is to really say one way or the other go.

[01:08:07] But but, yeah, the Supreme Court is kind of our only thing, holding our democracy to cut There, at this point.

[01:08:17] The courts in general, man, they're working overtime right now.

[01:08:21] Yeah. And they may be deciding this election, unfortunately. So I don't know what to make of that. I don't know a reassuring thing to add to that sentence.

[01:08:31] Well, I would just. I was just there. I mean, the kicker to my story is like, you know, it's a law professor saying, well, there's other ways to deal with the Supreme Court, assuming that the Democrats went in. Right. November and maybe that's what's necessary for climate policy.

[01:08:50] A lot of people have been saying that. You mean in terms of like, you know, adding justice? Yeah, yeah.

[01:08:55] Yeah, yeah, I know. What a mess. What a mess.

[01:09:01] Well, thank you. Just stand for joining us. I'm for spending so much time talking to us. We appreciate it.

[01:09:09] Happiness is great. Doctors with the puns. So easy. So what? What do lawyers wear to court order lawyers.

[01:09:18] What a court. I don't know. You know, I'm second guessing myself. What do they wear? A lot. A lot.

[01:09:34] No, this is great. Justin, thank you so much.

[01:09:37] Thank you. Glad to. Happy to do it.

[01:09:55] Thank you so much to Justin for joining us on the show today. You can and should follow him on Twitter at Justin Worland. That's W o, r, L.A. and D and follow his reporting over time.

[01:10:08] Right. And he also has a newsletter which you can find over in his pen tweet on the Twitter machine. Also, you can follow us on Twitter. We are at real hot take. I am at Mary Haigler and Amy is at Amy Westervelt.

[01:10:21] That's right. And like we said earlier, you should subscribe to our newsletter. We're doing great stuff over there. Everything from movie reviews to original reporting. Climate grief essays. Yeah.

[01:10:32] We've also got cocktail recipes and we've been doing like virtual debate watch parties, which have been the only thing kind of keeping me together during this process. Yeah, we have drinking games. It's a lot of fun because, you know, we're all social distancing. So that means we can't be in a bar together. Yeah. We also Twitter can be a little bit too public sometimes.

[01:10:55] So if you want some community, this debate thread is a great place to be. So we have a premium version with all of the fun features for as little as seven dollars a month or eighty dollars a year. Or if you really love us, you can sign up for our founding membership and you get a free t shirt with that founding membership.

[01:11:12] Oh, right. We understand that. I know. Yeah, it's a great deal when you think about it. Really? Well, we understand that not everyone can do that right now.

[01:11:22] And we don't want the most important story of our time locked behind a pay wall. So we produce a free newsletter, too, that has a roundup of weekly coverage and a free feature from us, plus teasers for all the good stuff in the premium newsletter.

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[01:11:51] Yes, it is in the mail. I just. Every single thing that's been ordered has been mailed. Now it's very exciting. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. We love all of that stuff. OK. That's it for this episode. If you've got questions about the general theme of this episode or ideas for other themes you want to see us tackle or just thoughts on your day. Send them to hot takes at Critical Frequency dot org. That's hot. Takes plural at Critical Frequency dot org.

[01:12:20] Right. And make sure again to leave us some rating or review on iTunes. If you have a negative review, please send them to Briancon at Earth ARCOM.

[01:12:29] That's Brian b r i a n that came in at earthier dot com.

[01:12:35] That's right. OK. Talk to you next time.