S2, Ep12 | All the Lives in the Balance, with Rachel Ramirez

Amy [00:00:10] Hey, Hotcakes. Welcome to Hot Take the podcast where we talk about the climate crisis and all the ways we're talking and not talking about it. I'm Amy Westervelt.

Mary [00:00:19] And I'm Mary Annaise Heglar. And this episode, we're going to talk about some of the parts of the climate crisis that we don't talk about that much, at least not here. It's kind of like the hidden costs of climate change. You know, the extreme weather that's happening in the global south and how it is leading to this huge migration crisis and how we're not really talking about it that way. And the huge toll that it takes on environmental activists in the global south and how that sort of apathy that we in the West, in particular the United States, have shown to the rest of the world and how it's kind of turning on us now and all of us at stake in this election. And we're sitting down with a perfect guest for this conversation.

[00:01:03] That's right. We got to talk to Rachel Ramirez this week. She is a writer for Grist. Her beat is environmental justice and she grew up in the Marianas Islands. And talk to us. She's Filipino and she's Filipino. Right. So she talked to us about, you know, what it was like to live through storms there that weren't getting coverage and what it was like to be here when Superstorm Yutu hit. And, you know, she wasn't able to get news coverage about it or to reach her family, all that kind of. Yeah.

[00:01:34] So, yeah, she's got a bird's eye view, a handful of countries that get the coverage and it's the vast majority of the world that just gets ignored. So, yeah. This was a really interesting and important conversation. I felt like we should have before the election. This is our last episode before the election and we'll be getting back together just to vent and talk through whatever happens on on November 4th. Yeah. Which is my birthday. So send me chocolate.

[00:02:04] It's like it's seven days away and it feels like like frickin parallel universe that we can't die.

[00:02:12] It does. Like, I can't imagine the world afterwards. So, yeah, that'll be interesting. Yeah.

[00:02:18] So if you want links to the articles that we discussed in this show, make sure that you sign up for our newsletter. We'll have some more information about how to do that at the end of this episode and in the show notes and also make sure that you go and leave us a rating or review on items. Again, we have a different system for people to read negative feedback. We'll talk more about that and the end of the show as well. Right. That's it's time to talk about climate.

[00:02:55] Hi, Rachel. Thanks for doing this. We appreciate you joining us today. Thank you for having me.

[00:03:00] So first things first question we ask everybody. How did you get into journalism and specifically into climate journalism?

[00:03:09] Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a long story, but I actually we got time. I actually got into journalism because of a significant climate disaster that happened in my hometown.

[00:03:22] So I'm for those who don't know, I was born and raised in Cyprus and Northern Mariana Islands. It's a U.S. territory just north of Guam. And if you don't know where Guam is, I guess just Google Maps. But I guess, you know, the summer of 2015, I was an incoming sophomore. I went to the University of Portland. And that summer I visited my hometown. I went back home with my family, my friends, and then back to Portland because I was stirring call us college again, second year of college. And a couple of days after I came back, I think three days after I came back as a super typhoon was literally barreling down my Marianna's. And, you know, it was Super Typhoon Suda law. It was a Category five and it was really destructive. And, you know, my parents call me every day. And I I guess when the power went off and skypan out across the island, I was really worried. And I, you know, refreshing my Facebook feed, my Twitter feed on social media, trying to get updates on know my my mom and my dad there, my dad or day or my sisters or my friends or there,. But I wasn't getting the updates that I needed. And I just left and I was in Portland. And I think my first sort of instinct when something like this happens is to write and to. Yeah. You know, after after writing, I guess multiple Facebook statuses of like and sharing things of what's happening. And, you know, there was a lack of coverage, too, of what's happening, not even lack, I guess there was zero besides newspapers in Guam. So I wrote this, you know, super link, amateur, I guess, article CNN had this I-Report submission. I know you both remember that, but I don't think they have it anymore. But you sort of an article and you get this. You are well, you can share in your social media, but it's not, you know, published. It's kind of it's kind of like a citizen journalism type submission type thing. But I did that and then I got the euro showed on Facebook. And then once the power went back on the islands like it was widely shared. And I was like, oh, my God, I think this is what I wanted to do.

[00:05:49] Have you seen things in the way that it's discussed that you would that you would change or that you want to kind of focus on trying to change yourself?

[00:06:00] Yes. So I've you know, I've been I've actually been talking to I've been invited to talk to grad students at NYU and CUNY in the last couple weeks.

[00:06:10] And one thing that I kept telling them is that, you know, if you're going to be a climate journalists, you have to step outside of the bubble and remember that climate justice or climate change really intersects with a plethora of issues such as, you know, housing, justice, economic justice, racial justice, immigration, cetera.

[00:06:30] Yeah. I guess, you know, this is more for journalists. And, you know, we all know in our circle we know this. And my you know, my partner probably thinks I'm a broken record after hearing this a few times. And I could not emphasize that enough that, you know, if you don't think a news story is a climate story. Think again. And that's something that I told them a lot. And, you know, if you don't think the climate story. You know, think again. If you don't think immigration is the climate. Sorry. Think again. Yeah. And I know that that's that's the one thing that I would change and the way we discuss climate. I mean, as a journalist, you know, as in the work that we do in our space, we know this. But I think in the overall sort of climate discourse and Chin, I feel like that's something that people don't realize.

[00:07:17] Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, right. Because we've turned COVA into an everything story. Right. Like, you wouldn't write about like this year's baseball season without talking about how it intersects with COVA. And you shouldn't write about it without talking about how it intersects with climate. Either way, like is hotter out her. So. Yeah. And on that note, are there any interesting themes that you've noticed?

[00:07:43] I feel like the climate conversation has changed dramatically in the past two years and it's changing just all this time. So are there any, like, encouraging in particular themes that you've noticed in the way that we're talking about climate change now?

[00:07:58] Yeah, I definitely think environmental justice is coming into the spotlight more now in the larger picture. Again, I think for us it's something, you know, we've sort of been writing and talking about for a long time and for a while now. But I think for other folks outside of climate, Twitter or the climate space, I feel like, you know, they think that environmental justice is just about. And I think I tweeted this actually vulnerable communities getting hit the hardest from store fires. But, you know, we we know that that it's bigger than that. It's about the military poisoning the Pacific. It's about it's about formerly red line community suffering the most from extreme. He it's, you know, deeper than that. And I think now the narrative has shifted to, oh, it's black and brown communities intentionally and disproportionately located next to polluting infrastructure, the fossil fuel industry. And we we saw that come up for the first time, at least in my lifetime, on the debate stage last week when Kristen Welker asked the candidates about that very question. And, you know, I remember jumping on my couch and screaming when I heard that. But, you know, it's more interesting because it's like, why now? Right. When environmental justice has been a term and an issue, a route that's been around for decades since like 70s. So, yeah, I think I know it's my beat, but like, I really do think that environmental justice is a theme that's sort of emerging now.

[00:09:30] Yeah. I mean, that wasn't the first time in your lifetime. That was the first time ever because we before this election cycle, the discussion of climate change in any presidential and vice presidential forum was total ten minutes.

[00:09:45] Well, and certainly no one ever asked about environmental justice.

[00:09:49] Absolutely not. I mean, something so powerful that it's a woman of color who asked.

[00:09:56] Yeah, she she left a lot to be desired in terms of pushing back on a lot of the nonsense, though.

[00:10:04] Do you mean the I'm the least racist person in this room comment, Mary.

[00:10:10] I mean by that I mean so much shit, Amy. So much shit. I know.

[00:10:17] So yeah. But no, it was cool that she in particular ask that question and that, you know, I mean, I'm sure it's like the first time several people watching. Thought about that. So but yeah. I don't know why it's it's emerging now and not, you know.

[00:10:35] Like 15, 20, 30 years ago.

[00:10:39] You know, the discussion, I feel like I started to when during the no dapple protest. But then it went down again and then the youth climate movement came up and then. Yeah. And now it's coming up again. Well, you know, as the country.

[00:10:54] That's true. Its racial reckoning.

[00:10:58] Yeah, that's true.

[00:10:59] And I do think the youth climate movement is way, way better at just like coming from. And E.J., Lindze from the jump, like they're not they didn't have to be told that.

[00:11:10] Yeah. Oh, yeah. OK, so what what are you reading these days?

[00:11:19] Do you. Are there particular newsletters that you read. We know you have one too.

[00:11:25] Or, you know, like particular writers that you follow or a book that you read recently or outloud greed on climate.

[00:11:34] I mean, you know, just this week, just yesterday, like, there was a bunch of environmental stories that were published in really great investigation in behalf of thesis.

[00:11:45] Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Great book. You.

[00:11:52] But I think there's a lot of journalists and I don't think I can list most all of them.

[00:12:00] And I tweeted which of article articles yesterday as well.

[00:12:03] But right now and recently, I would you know, I reckon I recommend reading and they wrote about this.

[00:12:10] The book Poisoning the Pacific would just which just came out this month. And I wrote about it in The Guardian. And it basically explores and highlights how the U.S. military covered up years of contamination and and and this environmental destruction in the Pacific of indigenous lands in in across the Marianas and Marshall Islands, in Hawaii, in Okinawa and Japan, and just, you know, just burying barrels of toxic chemicals in this, you know, all these things that is literally poisoning the Pacific.

[00:12:51] And that that's that's a title. So, yeah, it's I read that and I was just shocked. And I really highly recommend people read that. And it's Poisoning the Pacific by John Mitchell.

[00:13:03] And then right now, I actually have a book with me called.

[00:13:08] And I've been referencing it in some of my stories called Disposable City by Morio. All 100 Rizza probably butchering his name. I'm sorry, but it's about Miamis future on the shores of climate catastrophe.

[00:13:24] So, yeah, I guess those are the two books that I've been reading and kind of going back to.

[00:13:31] I love it. Nobody ever gives us book recommendations. So that's awesome.

[00:13:35] I love that.

[00:13:37] Totally.

[00:13:38] I started this year tracking my books that I read, so I had a log it down and my good reads. And so I'm on track to do like three, 30 books, hopefully by the end of the year. That's awesome.

[00:14:08] You're writing a lot. Sounds like it's kind of like your your safe place as it is for me and Amy. So this lightning round is about writing. So she'd be like right up your alley ratio. What do you call a writer who doesn't follow the rules of city's structure? Oh, my God. A journal is a rebel without a clause. Yo, get some, don't worry. What did the writer who became a baker become known for you? Yeah, I have no idea. I have no smart answer.

[00:14:47] You can also ask Amy for help because she should know this, too. God, I'm terrible at these. Mary loves to tell people ask me for help because I'm even worse at them than everybody else. Kind of.

[00:14:59] Mary, is this this isn't it. Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is about. I love the plundered.

[00:15:10] Yes.

[00:15:11] Can you repeat the question, Mary? What did the writer who became a baker become known for?

[00:15:16] OK. Is her synonym Rose?

[00:15:20] Oh my God, I know.

[00:15:44] OK. So, Rachel, the real reason we want to have you on the show is because we wanted to talk about the past of the climate crisis that we often don't talk about here in the United States because they don't happen here.

[00:15:56] They happen below the equator generally. And I want us to start off by having you read from a piece that you wrote last year in Griss.

[00:16:10] A year ago, this island was hit with the worst storms since nineteen thirty five. What happens next?

[00:16:17] Super Typhoon U2 made history as the worst storm to hit United States soil since nineteen thirty five.

[00:16:23] The Category five storm wreaked havoc on the islands of Sipan and Tinian, which are part of the U.S. Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands. The storm left thousands of residents without homes for weeks.

[00:16:36] Fallen power poles and palm palm trees blocked main roads, while tin roofing and debris blanketed the ground site.

[00:16:43] Pan International Airport canceled all flights for about a month. South Korea deployed military jets to rescue tourists trapped on the decimated island.

[00:16:54] Hurricane Maria made headlines two years ago when it pummeled Puerto Rico, another U.S. territory. But many mainland Americans didn't hear much about super typhoon. You, too. That's not only because of the scars. Media attention, but also because the islands are largely missing from U.S. history textbooks. Now, the year has gone by since to battered the Northern Marianas and residents are still reeling, waiting for government funding.

[00:17:17] Watching warily as another storm season passes and wondering when things will get back to normal.

[00:17:24] Wow. Yeah. And, yeah, you know, I don't we like we talked about this a little bit about just how little coverage there was. Yes. Of this storm when it happened.

[00:17:35] But I don't think I even realized that the airport was shut down for a month. That's crazy.

[00:17:40] Yeah, that's not. Yeah. Yeah. So what's happening there? What's happening there now?

[00:17:46] How's it because I know like with Maria too. It's still you know, there's they're waiting for things.

[00:17:52] Yeah. I mean it also compounded with the lack of tourists and driving the economy.

[00:17:59] So the island is also suffering from that.

[00:18:03] Yeah. Durst The lots I visited and twenty ninth in last year something and and I'm pretty sure this is still true today, but there are still sort of Routon refugee like tents from FEMA, right.

[00:18:21] Yeah. Those tents still exist today because a lot of the homes are still, you know, really destroyed.

[00:18:30] So I think most people are.

[00:18:33] So have the Times. But I think a lot of people have also moved on to, I guess, apartments or other homes, and I know a lot of people have also moved on to the mainland.

[00:18:44] And, you know, now, even personally, my now that my sister is in college in California and my parents are sort of tired of dealing with sort of the economy and also dust storms that keep battering the island. And my parents are planning to move to the mainland soon, possibly next year. And it's supposed to be this year, but the pandemic happened. So it's it's had an impact. And a lot of people's lives changed since then.

[00:19:12] Right. It's really sad how little coverage a storm like this got. And it's also that it won't be the last. It hasn't been the last. And every single the trauma that comes from something like that, which is another thing that I really appreciated about your article, is a year after it actually happened. And so you get to see what the scars look like a year later. And it's just something that people don't. People in the United States on the mainland are not really thinking about and how the lack of coverage can lead to a lack of response, a lack of donations, a lack of just like even awareness that this happened.

[00:19:53] Yeah. So there is actually an article that also was published. I think it was four. It was last month or this month in Harper's Magazine, where the article spotlights Super Typhoon Yutu inside pad.

[00:20:10] The writer, her name, I think with Ciara Murdoch, and she is not from Sipan whatsoever.

[00:20:17] She writes a lot about indigenous communities. And I think she spent some time in Spain getting to know the community. And I think she really did a great job of sort of telling their stories and in a very, you know, narrative and visceral way and essentially explores what, you know, when when is it time to abandon the place climate changed.

[00:20:42] I don't know. That story, you know, gave me chip chills because a lot of people she spotlighted this family who, you know, after waiting for, I guess, a month for FEMA, Inspector Holmes, because it was totally like Latin and destroyed by U2.

[00:21:01] They sort of this ultimately decided to, you know, uproot their lives and move to Seattle where some of their relatives are.

[00:21:09] And so it's that idea of like starting from scratch again after leaving their life behind and sitin.

[00:21:16] It was, you know, really heartbreaking. And I don't know, I just thought that article really hurt, you know, and really touched on the feelings of.

[00:21:29] I don't know. It was just as emotional for me, and it was. Yeah.

[00:21:33] Yeah. That makes me really happy to hear that they publish that, because the last time we read anything in Harper's, it was when they published that letter about cancel culture and.

[00:21:43] Yeah. And Amy and I went through their archives to be like this unless somebody did a climate story and it was frickin December. So I'm thrilled to see them turn their attention back to that.

[00:21:56] Yeah, it is also.

[00:21:59] I saw you tweet recently that, you know, you just voted and you talked about like all of the people in, you know, the global selves who may or may not get to vote. Mariana Islands, they do get to vote, but they don't. I don't think the Electoral College representation do it.

[00:22:20] So. So for. Yeah, I talked about how in the U.S., the U.S. territories, which is the Northern Mariana Islands, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico and American Samoa, who can. Yes, the US Census Bureau estimates that they have that's about four million Americans because anyone born in those islands are U.S. citizens. But, you know, they lack a constitution, the constitutional right to vote. And the messed up part is that they can serve in the military. And, you know, having you know, they can serve in the military, serve for their country, but they can't even vote for their commander in chief, which is, I guess, insane to me.

[00:23:06] And, you know, I think a lot of you know, a lot of people sort of ask like and there's this sort of movement to and it's also an environmental justice movement to theme militarize the gomory on this one, potentially in Guam and sort of gaining that independent status.

[00:23:27] But a lot of people sort of ask, like if if Psychon or the Marianna's or Guam were its own, you know, independent country, would it have been able to finance its own recovery? But, you know, the true sort of the hard truth is that I don't think it would have finance its own recovery without FEMA, FEMA assistance. I guess that's the hard truth. And, you know, we have we have right now we have a president and an administration that's currently rolling back environmental regulations that are supposed to be addressing climate change.

[00:24:00] That's that's facing these U.S. territories.

[00:24:04] And small island nations. But, yeah, it's it's hard. And it's you know, on top of that, the military is expanding in those islands as well.

[00:24:15] And they're sort of part of the problem when it comes to releasing greenhouse gas emissions. Right.

[00:24:21] Debating climate change.

[00:24:23] So another disaster I wanted to shine a light on that really drove me crazy with Cyclone often, which battered Bangladesh and India and was just an extraordinarily strong and dangerous storm in a place that was the sun Sundarbans, which are rapidly, rapidly sinking in India. If you've had a tough go, she's Gun Island novels, all about climate change is set there. And yes, so there was this piece that came out shortly after the storm called Cyclone. Often victims feel abandoned by the international community. It's published in a German outlet. This past May. So this. The Journal is basically just quoted. This 19 year old student who goes by s.M Shaheen alarm.

[00:25:18] And he says cyclones don't scare me anymore.

[00:25:21] What scares me is that we're dying slowly because of climate change. All our farmlands and shrimp enclosures have been submerged once again. It means we won't be able to cultivate anything in the coming months. We have to rely on support from nongovernmental organizations. Sometimes I feel that the international community has also abandoned us. They have less less to die slowly. The West is largely responsible for global warming, which has resulted in higher sea levels. We are the ones who have to suffer because of it. Still, we don't see any international initiative for our protection.

[00:25:56] Yes, true.

[00:26:00] I really I I kind of am surprised that the conversation around climate reparations hasn't reemerged like this is something that came up. Maybe. Well, actually, when the mount the guy who held the first underwater cabinet meeting in the Maldives, he was a big proponent of that.

[00:26:19] So was Abel Morales in Bolivia.

[00:26:21] This was, you know, like a thing at the Copenhagen talks.

[00:26:25] In the Copenhagen U.N. conference that was like a predecessor to the Paris Agreement 2009.

[00:26:33] Anyway, yeah, I felt like there was a big kind of there's a lot of momentum then around that idea.

[00:26:39] And it's sort of like petered out. Yeah, I have theories as well past time for that.

[00:26:45] Yeah. But the thing you notice that the people that you named as being like really strong proponents of reparations, they've all been they've all been out. Yeah. They've been deposed.

[00:26:55] So there was this wave of authoritarianism. They kind of took their place like the guy in the Maltese was like replaced by a military coup that was like, you don't need climate action. You need development. Right. And so thinking. Right. And it's just happening all over the place. It would make sense for it to come back. But authoritarianism seems to be taking its place instead.

[00:27:19] And yeah. Yeah, it's it's just it's terrifying, honestly.

[00:27:26] And all of this is turning into this big wave of climate migration that up until super recently, people weren't even calling it climate Mongar.

[00:27:37] Now I know.

[00:27:38] Well, and that really plays into all the authoritarianism, too, right?

[00:27:41] It's this crazy rise of. Anti-immigration sentiment and eco fascism and all of that.

[00:27:51] Yeah, yeah, and something that you were talking about, Rachel. It was about Indonesia moving its capital.

[00:27:57] Yeah, it was, I guess, summer of twenty nineteen when the Indonesian president, Joko Widodo.

[00:28:08] I just searched it up and down.

[00:28:13] That the cap.

[00:28:15] Auto City, it will be relocated to the island of Borneo instead of Jakarta because. But I don't think he explicitly said it was. I don't think explicitly acknowledge they would because of the climate crisis. But it is because of, you know, it is sinking and people have been calling it a sinking city and also due to its overpopulation and industry industrial activity and things like that. And just overall bad air quality and water pollution that's been, I guess, plaguing the city's residents. So that's. Yeah, it's it's some form of managed retreat that we're seeing.

[00:28:58] Yeah, that's interesting, though, too, because I do feel like the whole managed retreat thing just terrifies me because I feel like it's not being it's not really being planned out.

[00:29:11] And to define that term, it's sort of, you know, just moving people out of harm's way when we know that, you know, where they're living is going to be inundated with water in the next few years or like there's been some talk about, you know, at what point do we stop rebuilding some of these areas in California that keep getting burned down?

[00:29:34] Yeah. But the problem is, I mean, it's it's so it's so much a microcosm of the broader climate conversation, right.

[00:29:42] Where it's like we don't want to deal with that and plan for it. So we're just going to wait until it's like a crisis situation and then have people like running from their homes.

[00:29:53] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:57] It's like humans aren't infrastructure and we have memories that are built into the community and the neighbor.

[00:30:04] Yeah.

[00:30:05] So I mean, that's the thing is it's like, okay well if it's not a who should be in charge of that.

[00:30:10] Who is in charge of it. Who's making the decisions about where people should move.

[00:30:15] How does that get funded. How is it just there's so many unanswered questions about it. I just I don't have a lot of faith in those questions being answered. Well, we're equitably. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[00:30:29] That that equitable measures superimportant.

[00:30:32] And I think, you know, we're seeing and I mentioned this I think earlier where I'm writing this story and homebuyer programs that's happening. You know, that happens in Louisiana and Texas. And we're also seeing it happening in New York and Staten Island. How communities are getting uprooted and they're getting paid property values, pre pre storm property values and sort of the government is buying them out to demolish their homes and start moving them into higher ground. And that's a form of managed retreat that's better for the government financially, because if, you know, if you keep I guess without the homebuyer program, I think the homebuyer program is meant to be sort of economically feasible then then having to repay them with FEMA assistance over and over again each year whenever another hurricane comes along.

[00:31:33] I think that's something that most governments of coastal cities are looking into now in the US.

[00:31:39] But it's a program that that's being studied continuously.

[00:32:06] OK. What do you call a neighborhood where everyone's a writer? Brooklyn. I accept it. But the answer we were looking for is a writer's block.

[00:32:19] Oh, God.

[00:32:20] That's a good one. Yeah. That's a good one. What dinosaur is a writer's best friend?

[00:32:29] Oh, God, Amy, help. It's not a real dinosaur. I have no idea. I don't know. My God, this is so easy.

[00:32:40] Um.

[00:32:44] I want to say T. Rex in some capacity starts T.

[00:32:52] This is the Sari's.

[00:32:56] That area usually. That was probably. Oh, yeah. I don't know if you're gonna get one.

[00:33:01] No, I have to.

[00:33:02] I was gonna have to source taps open to see you were looking at it in the face.

[00:33:26] So another cost of climate change that Americans are often, you know, insulated from is the toll on environmental activists all over the world.

[00:33:38] And this is probably true for like the whole global north or the whole west, really, because we have all of these, you know, celebrated wonderful environmental activists here. And we love them, but we don't really get exposed a lot to how difficult it is to be an environmental activist below the equator, because I don't know all the reasons for why that is. But I have some guesses. But you've done a lot of reporting on this, right?

[00:34:10] Yeah.

[00:34:11] For indigenous protesters in the Amazon, in Australia and in New Zealand and the Philippines. Yeah. And just the global south.

[00:34:26] It's dangerous in New Zealand, too.

[00:34:28] It's funny because I think I saw this tweet about, you know, people thinking that New Zealand is perfect. But I think there are some, you know, indigenous affairs that aren't being recognized yet.

[00:34:39] Oh, people definitely think it's. It's like the new Canada. Everybody thinks it's perfect.

[00:34:45] Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think the thing about indigenous communities, too, is that they're so connected to the land that I don't even think that climate migration is part of the picture or the solution.

[00:35:00] I don't know. Yeah.

[00:35:03] Yeah. Do you have thoughts on that?

[00:35:06] Yeah. I saw an article today about an environmental activist in South Africa who was shot dead in her home.

[00:35:16] And I mean, she was 65 years old and was just courageously protesting this coal mine that was near her home. And these men just like entered our houses six, 30 p.m in a 13 year old child, saw her shot dead. And it's just like so craven and brazen as that. And it's something that like it's a story that I would have to go looking for if I didn't follow African climate activism on Twitter. I probably would know that this happened. I've also seen plenty of stories of I believe the Philippines is where the most environmental activists are under attack.

[00:35:58] It's terrifying. And yeah. So I wanted to ask you to read from a piece that you did. Again, you have another one called for indigenous protesters, the.

[00:36:10] Defending the environment can be fatal, according to a new report. They are not unusual as police crackdown on protests demanding justice and equity in the wake of the police killing of George FOID in the US.

[00:36:22] It's clear that activism in general comes at a heavy price.

[00:36:26] Environmental activists specifically, particularly indigenous activists and activists of color, have for years space high rates of criminalization, physical violence and even murder for their efforts to protect the planet, according to a comprehensive analysis by researchers.

[00:36:45] You can't say that the researchers analyzed nearly twenty eight hundred social related to the environment using the Environmental Justice Atlas database, which they created in 2011 to monitor environmental conflicts around the world. The study, published in the journal Global Environmental Change, found that 20 percent of environmental defenders faced criminal charges or were in prison. 18 percent were victims of physical violence, and 13 percent were killed between 2011 and 20 19. The likelihood of these consequences increased significantly for indigenous environmental defenders. Twenty seven percent face criminalization.

[00:37:28] Twenty five percent were victims of physical violence and 19 percent were murdered. Good grief. Yeah.

[00:37:36] It just got to be breathing that again. Even had it.

[00:37:40] Yeah. Wow. 19 percent were murdered. That's just on moments. Wow. And it's going up. Troubling.

[00:37:49] Like. Right. Like it's charting upward. And so I think about this as you know.

[00:37:56] I guess. I don't know. People call me a climate activist. I think I'm a writer. But I guess I occupy a weird space in-between where, like. I'm not necessarily afraid for my life at this level. I mean, we'll see what happens next week. But yeah, that's a certain amount of privilege that I tried to be aware of. It's also scary.

[00:38:21] You know, I'm I'm a Filipinas, so I sort of, you know, know from accounts of sort of the political landscape and climate and in the Philippines.

[00:38:33] I'm sure you've heard of the extrajudicial killings, the war on drugs with the president, the terror in the Philippines, and that some of his, you know, personal attacks have been not only towards journalists, but also environmental activists who disagree with with the president himself and some sort of justification of of, you know, eliminating drugs and declaring war on drugs, this kind of cause, this unjust killings in the Philippines.

[00:39:08] And, yeah, I guess, you know, a part of that. There's a lot of it. And I think that feeds into why Philippines. It's such it's so high that, you know, as the deadliest country for environmental defenders.

[00:39:24] I mean, they've been they've been labeled by the president himself as quote unquote, the enemy of the state. Yeah. Like social media by it and by a bunch of propaganda.

[00:39:35] So, yeah, this is kind of like the same playbook is your Brulle scenario. And what whoever that woman was to replace Evo Morales for that brief period, what's in it?

[00:39:50] Anya? Yeah.

[00:39:52] Yeah. They all like immediately declare war on the indigenous folks. And I I'm obsessed with this other podcast called Behind the Bastards. And they recently did an episode on the School of the Americas, which I'd, you know, I'd heard of but didn't know nearly enough about. Enough about.

[00:40:11] And one of the things I found that was interesting was that they took people, you know, from fairly modest means and trained them as soldiers, so to speak, more like death squads and turned them very strongly against indigenous people in their country. And so, like they are the reason your country. You know why you don't have fancy washing machines or things like that back home. And, you know, this is like starting in the 50s, like, most people have washing machines. And so. Yeah. And the way that that just like gets to build and progress over generations. And then it turns into like they when these right wing militia coups happen, that's immediately who they go after, because those are the people standing in the way of progress and development, which is really just another word for extraction and devastation.

[00:41:04] Yeah. It's it's dark.

[00:41:07] It's real dark, dark.

[00:41:09] We also want to talk about this. And you kind of mentioned this a little bit before, Mary, that like, you know, sometimes people forget that that Australia and New Zealand are in the global south.

[00:41:22] Yeah. Yeah. They're like south, as you can kind of get. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:28] And that, you know. And yet, you know, I think those countries get more cover than other like around our country.

[00:41:39] Yeah. And the global south.

[00:41:41] Exactly. Yeah. What is the difference.

[00:41:44] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:47] So but even still, you know, in as. As sort of these fires were barreling down on, on Sydney, people in the U.S. were kind of like, hey, yeah.

[00:42:01] You know, I mean there was way more coverage in the media.

[00:42:05] Right. So it seemed like there was a general sort of apathy. And at the exact same time, Indonesia was going through these really horrible floods, which were, you know, another reason why they're moving their capital. But we weren't hearing about those floods nearly as much as we were hearing about the fires and in in Australia. And at the same time, we weren't hearing nearly enough about that, because if I talked to anybody outside of a climate circle, they were like, oh, those fires are still going on. I forgot. And so I picked out this piece from in.

[00:42:38] Also, the wild thing is that that was this year, those fires in Australia this year, they were like, oh, my December in February.

[00:42:49] They went off for a long time. And so I picked up this piece from David Wallace Wales last year.

[00:42:56] It was like December ish. That reads really creepy to me now.

[00:43:03] And I'm going to read like a fairly long excerpt. So. So bear with me. It's called Global Apathy toward the fires in Australia is a scary portent for the future.

[00:43:16] But the response to what's transpired in Australia, again, over a period that stretched in some months is unfamiliar to me at least, and not in a good way. Those California fires transfixed the world's attention. But while the ones still burning uncontrolled in Australia have gotten some media attention outside the country in general, they have been treated as a scary but not apocalyptic local news story. There are all the usual factors the desire to look away, to avoid contemplating the scariest aspects of contemporary life or what they pretend for a future. The short sightedness of the media reluctant to cover climate disasters, at least as climate disasters and the forces of denial. But two additional explanations suggest themselves to me, neither at all encouraging. The first is the duration of this climate. A horror has allowed us to normalize it even while it continues to unfold, continues to torture and brutalize and terrify the campfire and paradise, California. Almost all of his damage in just four hours and the short duration may have been as important to our collective horror as the speed. Perhaps if it lasted longer, even burning with equal ferocity, we would nevertheless simply have gotten used to it as the white noise of catastrophe all around us, as impossible as that may seem to imagine. Given the scale of suffering involved, the second explanation is perhaps even more distressing. If you had told me even six months ago that a climate disaster like this one, which tape would strike a place like Australia, I probably would not have expected global wall-to-wall media coverage, but I would have expected a lot more than this. That's not because of high minded faith in the media or public interest in harrowing stories like these is for a much more sane is far more sinister reason. For decades now, the U.S. and Western Europe, we have paid much, much more attention to even small scale suffering by the force of natural disaster when it strikes parts of the wealthy west than we ever muster.

[00:45:10] For those suffering already so dramatically from climate change in Asia and especially in the global south.

[00:45:18] So interest. There's a few reasons this is creepy to me. And the biggest one is that, well, the Australia type fires struck California this year and we kind of reacted the exact same way.

[00:45:31] Yeah. I cannot tell you how many conversations I've had with people that are like, so what's up with these fires?

[00:45:37] Are they still going? I don't know. I haven't kept track because it's hard to keep track, Ray. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's hard for me, even in the state, if unless it's like.

[00:45:50] Unless I'm in imminent danger from it, there's so much other shit going on that like I'm like I know I stick my head out my door and if I smell smoke, then I check the fire report. And if I don't, honestly, I kind of, like, avoid it. Yeah. Which is terrible, but true. Yeah.

[00:46:10] It's a way to keep your sanity. So are the fires though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Oh yeah. I know they're rolling through Colorado right now.

[00:46:21] Colorado's just like really really in it right now and then. I mean, honestly, you actually what happened this week in California. Fire news is that. Well, the entire West Coast had crazy wind happening. Some of the fires that had been contained got whipped up again a little bit.

[00:46:40] And then it seems like some of the preventative measures have worked.

[00:46:45] But that's also totally bonkers. Crazy. It's like one hundred thousand people were evacuated from the Bay Area preemptively and about a million people had power cut for two days. As a because it's like we know this wind is coming. You know, we have to try to, like, mitigate all the risk factors. And it seems to have done, you know, have have helped a bit.

[00:47:11] But like, it's just nuts that that's that's what it's going to take now. So, yeah, anyway. Is your sister in Oregon, too, Rachel? Or where she at?

[00:47:24] She she goes to UC Berkeley, so. Oh, OK. So she's right in there. Yes. So did she get evacuated from Berkeley or or was she did she stay?

[00:47:35] No, she she stayed, but she sent me a photo yesterday of this tree next to her apartment.

[00:47:42] So what happened?

[00:47:45] Yeah, it was green not to get off on a whole California fire tangent, but I agree.

[00:47:51] It's crazy. Yeah. We're not talking about it enough. So you should never apologize for talk about it. Amy.

[00:47:59] Yes. And I wonder, like, if you know, this thing to relate, it may relate to that notion of like hurricane fatigue.

[00:48:08] It's sort of like, you know, I mean, like in Tropical Storm Zeta. Right now. And yes. Another tropical storm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No. Yeah.

[00:48:18] No, it is. We're getting numb and it's not good. It's not good at all. And honestly, we're not even talking about the numbness nearly as much. Yeah. I mean.

[00:48:31] You know, we just got in. I didn't expect it to happen this fast. And I know, like I've said this before, but it just seems like we just like our hop, skip and jump in through the climate projections. Right.

[00:48:44] Like, I remember the summer before Australia was on fire, there was this really bad heat wave. And I remember watching the news and it was like freezing cold. It was like the polar vortex here in New York.

[00:48:57] And then seeing the images from Australia of like koalas quoll crawling into people's swimming pools. And, you know, like, look, I know, right. But then also, like snakes getting into toilets, which is way less cute. And just like the road was melting because it was so hot.

[00:49:15] And remember, I remember in the moment thinking like, oh, my God, this is so terrible. This is so terrible. This is the worst thing I've ever seen. And then the very next year, it's on fire like the whole continent is on fire. And looking back at the heat wave and being like, I didn't recognize how good that was.

[00:49:31] Yeah, yeah. I like that. Does get into this whole like, you know, we were just talking about the hurricane. I mean, are we going to get into like double Greek letters soon?

[00:49:40] It's crazy thing. Oh, yeah. What? Well, look, I don't know. I don't think we've ever gotten there.

[00:49:46] I saw.

[00:49:47] So someone on Twitter suggests that we should start naming them after oil companies like Tropical Storm Exxon and Chevron, Conoco Phillips.

[00:49:58] And you know why I am here for it. Bring it on like Hurricane Texaco survey. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:09] But no. Yeah, there's and there's been like really low coverage of this year's hurricane season, like even more so than the fire season total, which I feel like even less. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:20] Like There, we had to have like a big outcry to make people cover, to make West East Coast papers cover the West Coast fires. But when it comes to the hurricanes, people have just been like, you know what, fuck it, we're not we're not going to talk about. We got in an election. We've got a pandemic. Nobody's gonna talk about the hurricanes. Right. Like, Sally was a crazy storm, which just like ramped up super fast.

[00:50:46] People didn't have time to run.

[00:50:47] And, like, I didn't I could find any coverage of that because it came right after, like a massive coverage of Hurricane Laura. So I don't know. I felt like yeah, I guess that feeds in part of hurricane fatigue and that we're just covering another hurricane.

[00:51:06] Yeah, it's the same sort of path right now. Right.

[00:51:12] And that massive leap in in names. Right. Like we went from Laura to Sally. Sally was on the heels of Laura that.

[00:51:21] How many letters are in between Rekha Murthy. That's crazy. Yeah.

[00:51:25] Right. We don't even realize that that's happened. And so you like, think about it for a second.

[00:51:32] So, yeah, there's. It's your turn to read Aming from this essay in Day magazine called The Price of Normalizing Climate Disasters by Heather McTeer.

[00:51:45] Tony, great. Yeah.

[00:51:47] And a Mississippian climate disasters are happening more frequently, but are getting less. Top of the hour. Urgent coverage from news and media sources. And it's no wonder. Between the daily shock of another Trump administration scandal, racial injustice and corona virus pandemic updates. There's scarcely any room for climate incidents of any kind. Disaster philanthropy has shifted in how it addresses major weather events. Yet the need for immediate assistance has not. What's even scarier is that many of the same regions are being hit repeatedly, thereby supporting conservatives case for quote unquote, sacrifice zones across the country. Have we developed a sense of normalcy around these unnatural disasters? Climate. Complacency is real. So how do we shift this climate complacency in an era when we see climate disasters increase day after day, year after year, what will it take for us to get the message that we neither have the time, energy or space to be complacent about these issues?

[00:52:48] Like any good 12 step program, I believe the first step is recognizing that we have a problem. Climate change is happening and being complacent is tantamount to intentionally ignoring the elephant in the room.

[00:53:01] Yeah, it's hard though, because I do like how how, um, [00:53:06]how do we shift that complacency or that numbness? [3.2s]

[00:53:10] [00:53:10]Like it's I'm like, you know, even even people like us who are very aware of all these things and know all the drivers and the intersections and things like, you know, we feel numb some time. So it's just it's a lot all at once. [16.4s]

[00:53:27] [00:53:27]I don't know how to get out of that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. [4.2s]

[00:53:32] [00:53:32]How do you cope, Rachel? I don't know. I just see I. I guess I've been binge watching. And then it's also like, were you watching shows? Because I know the ending. But I don't know. [10.7s]

[00:53:43] [00:53:43]Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. That is a big part of it right now. Right. [3.7s]

[00:53:47] [00:53:47]Is just the UN. It's so, so much unknown all at once. [3.5s]

[00:53:51] [00:53:51]Oh my God. You're so right. I've been doing that and I don't think I even realized that's why I'm like watching the office over and over and over and over. [7.4s]

[00:54:00] [00:54:00]Yeah. Yeah. There's there's a comfort to knowing what happens. [3.4s]

[00:54:04] And I think that's something that, you know, makes you forget that you're in the middle of a climate crisis. You're in the middle of I don't know what else is rain, right?

[00:54:17] Yeah.

[00:54:17] I think I kind of limit how many stories I'm following. Honestly, like, so that I can stay present in climate.

[00:54:27] And it's also [00:54:28]like I try to keep myself center by focusing now on like what's going to happen in the world around me, but more on who I want to be, because that shouldn't change depending on what happens in the world around me and trying to get, like, really clear about how I want to operate in the world and show up in the world no matter who gets elected. [22.2s]

[00:54:51] [00:54:51]Like, do I want these? Someone is reducing human suffering. Adding to it. Ignoring it. Like, who do I want to be? [6.6s]

[00:54:58] [00:54:58]And just get super clear about that and stick to it and let that be my compass and then come what may. [7.5s] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:07] So empowering. I mean they're definitely still days where I slipped down that slide of despair though so.

[00:55:17] Yeah. I mean I feel like what we've talked through here is like all of the different things that are on the ballot and on the line in this election. And this is our last show before the election.

[00:55:30] We're going to be back here and we're gonna be back here like processing that. Yeah. We're gonna be back here on November 4th, because that is my birthday.

[00:55:38] And I'm gonna need to talk to somebody while I eat a whole cake by myself and drink and drink a bottle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A bottle of whiskey.

[00:55:59] Why should you never date an apostrophe? Because. It's set for Wraith's people. What else does it do?

[00:56:14] Causes contractions. No, no. You guys are not my. That was good. That was good.

[00:56:20] No, they're too happy. Oh, that's good. That's really good. Right.

[00:56:34] I feel like I would be remiss if I let us wrap up this recording without talking about it. What are the last thing that you want to say with a platform before this election?

[00:56:46] You know, it's OK for me. It's a vote in your local shit that is so important. Yes, vote for the president.

[00:56:53] But like the I don't know, the city in and down ballot stuff is also really, really, really important right now.

[00:57:00] And it's worth, you know, dealing with a line or the post office or whatever you got to do to do it. Yeah. And also, I would also like to say stop letting Democrats away with their fucking bullshit.

[00:57:18] Like, I'm so I'm so pissed off at how much they just rolled over on this.

[00:57:23] Amy CONI Barett thing.

[00:57:24] Like, I mean, it's like, well, we can't be rude, you know.

[00:57:30] Come on. Yeah. What makes you think this is the time for civility. Yeah, exactly.

[00:57:36] I was a really great article that came out. I think someone wrote it on Medium and it was sort of like, you know, Americans need to stop waiting for someone to come up and punch them in the face to realize that they're in like a revolution here.

[00:57:50] Yeah. Yeah. They're not going to declare up. Exactly.

[00:57:55] It's like your rights are being whittled away bit by bit, like, you know, wake up and fuck and do something. Hmm.

[00:58:04] What about your ratio? I don't know. I just wanted to add to something that Amy said that, you know, [00:58:10]I just wish that the cultural the culture of accountability, that momentum won't die. [5.8s]

[00:58:16] [00:58:16]And I think, you know, in 2020, where we sort of fostering that that culture of accountability at the height of the Black Lives Matter movement. [9.5s]

[00:58:26] [00:58:26]And just holding people in power accountable for their actions. [4.1s]

[00:58:31] [00:58:31]And I just wish that, you know, that won't die anytime soon, even after the election. [5.5s]

[00:58:37] [00:58:37]Yeah. Yeah. But and, you know, kind of I guess my last words would be. [5.8s]

[00:58:45] [00:58:45]To the same sentiment of voting is that even though I have the privilege of voting, even though I was born and raised in the U.S. territory with, you know, as a U.S. citizen but lacking constitutional rights, and I feel like when you go out to vote, I feel like you should keep you know, I want you to keep in mind the four million people, the four million Americans who are U.S. citizens who can serve in the military but can't vote. [27.7s]

[00:59:14] [00:59:14]And, you know, that's something that I really care about. And that's something that needs to be highlighted more. [5.1s]

[00:59:21] Hmm hmm, hmm, definitely.

[00:59:23] [00:59:23]And on that name, like I say, remember all the people who don't get to vote on this election but whose fate hangs in the balance. And in that, I'm including, you know, prisoners who don't get to vote. I'm including refugees on our borders. I'm including like really everybody in the world because there,. I wrote about this this week. There is no meaningful path to climate justice without the United States doing a huge part of of reducing its emissions and the emissions of the rest of the world because we've stolen a lot of wealth and that wealth is now needed to decarbonize the whole world. [36.0s]

[01:00:00] [01:00:00]And so if we're going to have a compassionate climate future, the United States needs to be doing a lot of that work logically and morally. So think about all of those people who don't get to vote. [11.3s]

[01:00:13] [01:00:13]And don't worry about what Joe Biden says he's going to do, worry about what we're going to make him do. [5.0s] So [01:00:19]all of this talk about like I'm not voting for him because he's not going to ban fracking. Amy, just one more time. Remind us why that's. [6.9s]

[01:00:27] [01:00:27]Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, the feds don't ban fracking. The states do. So, like, there's that. That's there's that. But also, if he pulls subsidies from fracking, which he said he's going to do, which he said he's going to do, pull subsidies from all oil and gas companies that will that will essentially kill fracking. And also, there's a whole bunch of other, you know, get rid of the exempt the Clean Water Act exemption for fracking. That will also kill fracking. [28.8s]

[01:00:58] [01:00:58]Get rid of all of the clean air exemptions for fracking. That will also go a long way. [5.6s]

[01:01:04] [01:01:04]And then, you know, yes, like I think, you know, encourage states to to ban permits for new fracking pipelines. [8.8s]

[01:01:14] [01:01:14]But like, yeah, I just I honestly. The fracking thing kind of bums me out because I feel like people don't understand the issue on either side. And like both sides get really angry at and, like, aggro about it. [13.4s]

[01:01:28] [01:01:28]And it's yeah, there are there there's like a very clear path forward to deal with all the damage that fracking has done. And it doesn't need to be in the form of a Biden saying, I'm going to have a national ban on fracking, which doesn't even make sense with how our laws. Right. [15.7s]

[01:01:44] [01:01:44]Right. [0.0s]

[01:01:45] [01:01:45]It's also why I'm not drunk about Joe Biden. I'm krunk about us. [5.8s]

[01:01:52] [01:01:52]I'm krunk about what we can push for. [1.5s] Right. Like I am. I'm excited. I like I believe that the momentum is on our side and we just need like Joe Biden is a president that we can work with. He is very easily influenced. So that's good for us. Right. Whereas Donald Trump represents straightup authoritarianism. Right. Like, these are not like. Oh, he's not going to band for. He's not promising to ban fracking. So I'm not going to vote for him. Like, I don't need a promise. I just need a dare.

[01:02:25] Exactly.

[01:02:28] So and also, like, we were never in this for perfect and climate. People oughta know that better than anybody else because we lost a grasp of a perfect world a very long time ago. So and also, like I've never seen a perfect world and none of us ever will. So this isn't about perfect. This is about a chance in hell. And if we don't go after that and I don't know what we thought we were doing here.

[01:02:54] Yeah, totally. Thanks, Rachel, for making the time. Thank you. Have a good rest of your.

[01:03:17] Thank you so much to Rachel for joining us on the show today. You can and should follow her on Twitter at Reach Jue Ramirez. That's our AC h. J. You are a. M i. R. Easy.

[01:03:30] And follow her reporting over Agrest. And sign up for her newsletter, the breaking point.

[01:03:36] Right. And you can follow us on Twitter@@ Real Hot Take. I am at Mary Haigler and Amy is at at Amy WRVO.

[01:03:43] That's right. And like we said earlier, you should subscribe to our newsletter. We're doing great stuff over there. Everything from movie reviews and podcast reviews to original reporting, climate grief essays, previews of essays were publishing elsewhere. We've got a bunch of stuff there.

[01:03:59] Yeah, including this week I published an essay with The New Republic, which was just an adaptation of a shorter thing they published in Hartig. So yeah. Yeah, you could have been on the ground floor that people.

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